-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Is Damascus any good?
- Thread starter drjones
- Start date
The Tourist
Banned
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2001
- Messages
- 2,796
All I know is what I've read in the magazines. In one gun magazine I read an article from Ross Seyfreid. (I admire him as a sportsman and a writer. Not only has he hunted on just about every continent, but he writes articles about the experiments and data he has collected. He also casts his own bullets. You gotta love a guy who does that! 
)
In his article, mostly about knife selection and sharpening for the field, he stated that he had tried just about every type and design of damascus and could no longer recommend it. He liked the Loveless design, he preferred a shorter blade length and he gravitated towards ATS-34 sharpened to a more toothy edge. Considering his past articles, I believe that over the years he has taken just about everything out into the field and his observations are based on facts.
However, he did not mention the breed of STAINLESS damascus. I am not familiar with what stainless is used, how it is made, and more importantly how this mix of metals heat treats.
You must admit, some of the most beautiful custom knives are made of damascus.
)In his article, mostly about knife selection and sharpening for the field, he stated that he had tried just about every type and design of damascus and could no longer recommend it. He liked the Loveless design, he preferred a shorter blade length and he gravitated towards ATS-34 sharpened to a more toothy edge. Considering his past articles, I believe that over the years he has taken just about everything out into the field and his observations are based on facts.
However, he did not mention the breed of STAINLESS damascus. I am not familiar with what stainless is used, how it is made, and more importantly how this mix of metals heat treats.
You must admit, some of the most beautiful custom knives are made of damascus.
- Joined
- Nov 28, 1999
- Messages
- 14,985
Asking if damascus is any good is like asking if women are any good. It all depends on the women and it depends on the steels used to make the damascus.
Damascus steel can be as good or bad as you want it. Many, many factors are involved in making "Good" damascus. Factors like steels involved, who forged the damascus, how many times it was at critical temp while forging, whether the steel surfaces were clean before welding, how the steel was heat treated once made into a blade. The are many other factors involved in whether or not damascus is good or bad. Some damascus is purely for show. An example would be damascus containing large quantities of nickel. Most would agree that this is purely for show as the nickel layers will not harden. The old damascus mixes using mild steel or iron as an alloy, while cutting fairly well and being tough, would not cut as well as blade made from plain carbon steel. But, when you properly forge damascus using all high carbon steels, like a mix of O1 and L6 or 1084 and 15N20, you get the best of both worlds. You get a beautiful blade with high contrast that cuts very well indeed. Both L6 and 15N20 are saw steels containing nickel that would make good blades all by themselves. This gives you the contrasting shiny layers. The O1 and 1084 steels make great blades all by themselves. The key is to have a mix of materials that would make great blades if used by themselves.
Damascus steel can be as good or bad as you want it. Many, many factors are involved in making "Good" damascus. Factors like steels involved, who forged the damascus, how many times it was at critical temp while forging, whether the steel surfaces were clean before welding, how the steel was heat treated once made into a blade. The are many other factors involved in whether or not damascus is good or bad. Some damascus is purely for show. An example would be damascus containing large quantities of nickel. Most would agree that this is purely for show as the nickel layers will not harden. The old damascus mixes using mild steel or iron as an alloy, while cutting fairly well and being tough, would not cut as well as blade made from plain carbon steel. But, when you properly forge damascus using all high carbon steels, like a mix of O1 and L6 or 1084 and 15N20, you get the best of both worlds. You get a beautiful blade with high contrast that cuts very well indeed. Both L6 and 15N20 are saw steels containing nickel that would make good blades all by themselves. This gives you the contrasting shiny layers. The O1 and 1084 steels make great blades all by themselves. The key is to have a mix of materials that would make great blades if used by themselves.
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2001
- Messages
- 72
Thats a bit of an oversimplification. I believe that the theory behind the folding and the layering of the steel is that it make it stronger than the same steel would be as a single layer.
Not that it necessarily is the best steel but it is a way of getting more out of the same materials.
AKADave
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2002
- Messages
- 152
Most of what is called Damascus here is the west is decorative. Mostly two different steels mixed in a pattern and then etched to bring out the contrast. A lot of makers even use metals other than steel mixed in to give different colors and maximum contrast. Real Damascus is another animal really and Wootz steel falls in that category kind of. In order to get more homogenous steel in terms of carbon distribution the steel had to be folded since they couldnt get it molten and mix it in liquid form. The result is a mixture of steels one with more carbon than the other with different oxidation rates. The pattern would come out more as the blade aged and was used etc or etched with a mild acid.
The theory that I heard with Damascus is that when you sharpen the edge of a damascus blade you get sort of a micro-serrated edge becuase the different metals would abrade at different rates leaving an edge that wasnt perfectly even all the way along the edge. I dont know if that works in practice but the steel is attractive though I wouldnt say it would make a terrible edge.
The theory that I heard with Damascus is that when you sharpen the edge of a damascus blade you get sort of a micro-serrated edge becuase the different metals would abrade at different rates leaving an edge that wasnt perfectly even all the way along the edge. I dont know if that works in practice but the steel is attractive though I wouldnt say it would make a terrible edge.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
I pretty much agree with Danbo. The question is akin to "are man-made materials good for blade handles?" Some are, some aren't. If the damascus is made mostly for looks, or the smith makes a mistake, it might not perform all that well. Damascus made with performance in mind, by a good smith, by all reports can perform very well. Theoretically, you get a blade that performs just as well as the constituent steels, but looks nicer. Note that too much is probably made of the "hard layer / soft layer" theory, most smiths I've talked to say that carbon migration starts happening after just a few welds, and so hardness ends up more uniform than you'd think.
Joe
Joe
I would just add that probably the reason that you don't see it on "user" knives more is that it has always been a higher cost of ownership in every way you look at it. For starters, its price is usually 10x of a good steel (much less a cheaper one) and that's just the material. Someone concerned with using a knife isn't usually bothered with how pretty it is, just how well does it cut , what type of sheath does it have, and how much does it cost probably come up more often than, is Damascus an option on this knife?.
It's also (traditionally) got a much higher maintenance cost associated to it in that it will rust, no ifs ands or buts. Now, as was stated above, in the last couple of years, stainless steel Damascus has arrived and I really haven't heard too much in review of it other than it's stainless so it would probably help with the rust but no real idea of if it cuts any better. And there is also Timascus, Titanium Damascus, that I have just started to hear about that sounds really interesting to me. But I havent heard anything other than it's coming soon.
Another maintenance concern with Damascus is that with the high-carbon versions you are constantly (once every few months) rubbing/buffing out light rust (or at least I am with the one Damascus knife that I have, and yes I use a tuff cloth and it just slows it from happening) that forms on the surface and eventually you will take off the contrast that was etched in (I can see it happening after a few years, it's not bad now but in a few more years I have my concerns) with a light acid. Maybe not the end of the world and absolutely repairable, but I don't have and light acid (what ever that is) in the home.
In general, the consensus that I have gathered from Makers to Users is that Damascus can cut just as good but for a real user/field knife, go with a good steel, if you want a cool knife that will work nicely, but will cost much more and take work to keep it nice, then Damascus will fit the bill.
Todd
As an addition I would also say that all damascus is not equal. Like stated above a lot of it is made with nickle and it is for looks only, with great contrast between material. If the maker isn't telling you up front about the cutting performance then it's probably intended to be looked at more than used.
It's also (traditionally) got a much higher maintenance cost associated to it in that it will rust, no ifs ands or buts. Now, as was stated above, in the last couple of years, stainless steel Damascus has arrived and I really haven't heard too much in review of it other than it's stainless so it would probably help with the rust but no real idea of if it cuts any better. And there is also Timascus, Titanium Damascus, that I have just started to hear about that sounds really interesting to me. But I havent heard anything other than it's coming soon.
Another maintenance concern with Damascus is that with the high-carbon versions you are constantly (once every few months) rubbing/buffing out light rust (or at least I am with the one Damascus knife that I have, and yes I use a tuff cloth and it just slows it from happening) that forms on the surface and eventually you will take off the contrast that was etched in (I can see it happening after a few years, it's not bad now but in a few more years I have my concerns) with a light acid. Maybe not the end of the world and absolutely repairable, but I don't have and light acid (what ever that is) in the home.
In general, the consensus that I have gathered from Makers to Users is that Damascus can cut just as good but for a real user/field knife, go with a good steel, if you want a cool knife that will work nicely, but will cost much more and take work to keep it nice, then Damascus will fit the bill.
Todd
As an addition I would also say that all damascus is not equal. Like stated above a lot of it is made with nickle and it is for looks only, with great contrast between material. If the maker isn't telling you up front about the cutting performance then it's probably intended to be looked at more than used.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Messages
- 2,761
You want to see some amazing damascus, go here:
http://www.knifeart.com/pearmosautda.html
After looking at this knife, i could give a sh*t if it holds an edge. How the hell do they make this stuff anyway??? Amazing!
http://www.knifeart.com/pearmosautda.html
After looking at this knife, i could give a sh*t if it holds an edge. How the hell do they make this stuff anyway??? Amazing!
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2001
- Messages
- 65
The reason we mix steels today is purely astetics. Nowadays, steel comes to my shop wit a certificate of analysis! I know, if heat treated correctly, through experience, exactly how that steel will perform. If I need a knife with a certain performance or task, I can choose the steel best suited for that task. Mixing any of these materials is purely to make a pattern welded blade and make it look good. I'll agree a nickel mix of damascus does not belong on the cutting edge of a knife, but the steels most makers use in their mix today will be fine. Your damascus will only be as good as the least in your mix. I prefer 1084 and 15N20. These materials will make a great knife on their own, so why wouldn't they make a great knife when mixed. One place I see it in my experience would be carbon loss. Pick your mix so that there is an excess! Another is overheating, but with good normalizing cycles and aneal, you can refine your grain growth. Cold shuts and inclusions can happen, but you trash anything that is not sound anyway, so it should never end up on a blade. So, structurally, this knife should be sound.
Performance? I have tried to destroy several of my damascus blades and have not found them any more "delicate" than one of my carbon blades. Any smith should have a battery of tests he performs on his work. I test all of them and every once in a while one is "destroyed" to make sure everything is still dead on with my process. This is nothing more than quality control. Damascus made by a qualified smith should be as trusted as one of his carbon knives, only it will look better
Either of these will outperform an ATS34 blade anyway, you'll just have a little maintenence to do on them. Just my 2 cents woth.
Performance? I have tried to destroy several of my damascus blades and have not found them any more "delicate" than one of my carbon blades. Any smith should have a battery of tests he performs on his work. I test all of them and every once in a while one is "destroyed" to make sure everything is still dead on with my process. This is nothing more than quality control. Damascus made by a qualified smith should be as trusted as one of his carbon knives, only it will look better
Either of these will outperform an ATS34 blade anyway, you'll just have a little maintenence to do on them. Just my 2 cents woth.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Messages
- 2,761
Hi Jason. Youre saying, if i understand you correctly, that typical, average damascus, not the "best" out there, but good, solid quality, will outperform ATS-34, and im assuming 154CM as well?
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Messages
- 2,761
While we're on the subject of damascus steels, could someone explain to me, a completely ignorant civilian, how on earth a forging process can have the blade, solid through and through, filled with complex patterns, sometimes wildly complex, with tiny little animals, starfish, detailed spirographs etc.??? The little figures on the blade's surface, i am under the impression that they are present INSIDE the blade as well, not just the blade's surface, so that if you were to polish the surface down a few layers, the pattern and complex figures would still be there on the surface, is this true, and if so, how do they do it? (Speak sloooooooowly. 
)
)
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Messages
- 1,375
I'd make a distinction: is damascus needed? No. It's not.
Monosteels are much better than the best ancient damascus. Not surprisingly norse populations stopped making damascus blades when they could get enough steel of enough quality to build sword blades out of a single steel. But really important swords were nonetheless made out of damascus.
Is damascus inferior to monosteel? If improperly made, yes. It can contain bubbles, cold shuts and so on.
So, why have a blade made out of damascus? because if it's made well is as good as any other steel, and it's beautiful and has the fascination of something made out in the most difficult way.
Moreover a good smith could also control the actual carbon content much better using damascus techniques, even if I think this is more a theoretical possibility than a real, practical one.
Wootz is another thing entirely.
Modern stainless damascus blade eliminate the problem of maintenance, and modern powder steel damascus is obviously better than any traditional laminated wondersteel you can get (not powder monosteels, obviously). Grain is microscopic, uniform and such a knife holds an edge for much a longer time than any other type of blade.
Monosteels are much better than the best ancient damascus. Not surprisingly norse populations stopped making damascus blades when they could get enough steel of enough quality to build sword blades out of a single steel. But really important swords were nonetheless made out of damascus.
Is damascus inferior to monosteel? If improperly made, yes. It can contain bubbles, cold shuts and so on.
So, why have a blade made out of damascus? because if it's made well is as good as any other steel, and it's beautiful and has the fascination of something made out in the most difficult way.
Moreover a good smith could also control the actual carbon content much better using damascus techniques, even if I think this is more a theoretical possibility than a real, practical one.
Wootz is another thing entirely.
Modern stainless damascus blade eliminate the problem of maintenance, and modern powder steel damascus is obviously better than any traditional laminated wondersteel you can get (not powder monosteels, obviously). Grain is microscopic, uniform and such a knife holds an edge for much a longer time than any other type of blade.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2001
- Messages
- 20,978
I have had several Damascus-bladed knives and they all kept their edge well and much longer than all of my stainless knives.
If you expect it to be a thin slicer, you'll be disappointed. However, if you use one for heavy, aggressive cutting you'll be very impressed. That's why you see a lot of hunting knives made with Damascus, as well as high-end folders.
Having owned a "pretty boy" damascus knife, I'd have to say it was worth every penny. I was not afraid to use it. In fact, the more I used it, the more I liked it. Now, i certainly wouldn't take a Charlie Dake folder and cut up boxes with it...but that's a whole-nuther thread.
If you expect it to be a thin slicer, you'll be disappointed. However, if you use one for heavy, aggressive cutting you'll be very impressed. That's why you see a lot of hunting knives made with Damascus, as well as high-end folders.
Having owned a "pretty boy" damascus knife, I'd have to say it was worth every penny. I was not afraid to use it. In fact, the more I used it, the more I liked it. Now, i certainly wouldn't take a Charlie Dake folder and cut up boxes with it...but that's a whole-nuther thread.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2001
- Messages
- 20,978
"Good" damascus steel starts at $11 per inch and can go up to $32 per inch (ouch! 
). Plus shaping, etc. - usually 2x-4x depending on the maker.
Buck's 110 Damascus blade is $30 for 3.75" or $8 per inch. Now, being a factory blade, it is probably not marked up a whole lot, so it might come in around $5 per inch, stock.
Just for comparison sakes.
I agree with Danbo. You'll get an undeniably Damascus blade, but don't go thinking it's on the same level as the rest.
). Plus shaping, etc. - usually 2x-4x depending on the maker. Buck's 110 Damascus blade is $30 for 3.75" or $8 per inch. Now, being a factory blade, it is probably not marked up a whole lot, so it might come in around $5 per inch, stock.
Just for comparison sakes.
I agree with Danbo. You'll get an undeniably Damascus blade, but don't go thinking it's on the same level as the rest.