Ive just been selected for a sciance expo and i chose to use Damascus steel as my topic. One of the crteria however is that the subject chosen must be usefull to the modern world. Is there any use for Damascus steel of any composition not including jewelry, knife making or sword smithing? Is it better than other meterials in any way? eg can it conduct currant better etc
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Is damascus realy usefull?
- Thread starter tuesday
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Tuesday,
I'm going to refer you back to your own thread from before. I'm betting you'll get the same answers you got in April. To quote one post from that earlier thread '[Damascus] is not really better or worse than singular high carbon or tool steel, it is just “different”.' So, is that useful? I don't really know. One can make many arguments for the "usefulness" of a thing in modern society, but if you're coming at it from a scientific perspective, you probably don't want to use many of the arguments I'm thinking of as they revolve around the aesthetic value of pattern welded steel.
-d
I'm going to refer you back to your own thread from before. I'm betting you'll get the same answers you got in April. To quote one post from that earlier thread '[Damascus] is not really better or worse than singular high carbon or tool steel, it is just “different”.' So, is that useful? I don't really know. One can make many arguments for the "usefulness" of a thing in modern society, but if you're coming at it from a scientific perspective, you probably don't want to use many of the arguments I'm thinking of as they revolve around the aesthetic value of pattern welded steel.
-d
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
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tuesday,
You are asking an apples to oranges question.
Your query is like saying, "Other than surgery, is there any use where a scalpel is used, and is it better than other knives?"
Since damascus steel is a knife and sword material, its use and any discussion of superiority would have to be within that field. That is a big topic in itself. There are many who give damascus all sorts of mystic qualities, but the long and short of it is that the material was made to produce a high quality product in a by-gone day when there was no quality control, and metallurgy was non-existent. Besides resistance to breakage ( and that is argued,too) there is no real modern day advantage to damascus beyond the looks.That alone makes it worth the large and costly effort to produce damascus swords and knives.
Damascus steel was developed for swords and knives in the form of wootz steel. It was folded to even out the carbon content, distribute the impurities, and give it more strength. In this day of modern metallurgy and high quality steels, there is no real advantage to damascus ,now. The attractive look, the proof that the smith is capable of producing such a product, and the newer process of mosaic damascus make it a good medium for high end knives. I would venture to guess that nearly 95% of all knives sold over $1000 are made in damascus.
In the modern sense, damascus steel is just a nostalgic term, as the steel called by that name is more properly called "Pattern Welded Steel".
The technique of making tamahagane for authentic Japanese swords is very similar to making the original damascus steel. Tamahagane is still made the same way as it was 700 years ago. Some modern tools, such as power hammers are used, but the process is still the same.
Small amounts of wootz and bulat steel ( the Russian equivalent of wootz) are still produced, but it is quite an intensive process.The sole purpose of this output is the making of wootz knife blades.
Wrought iron was also made by drawing out and folding the iron. This distributed the silicon slag evenly and made a much higher strength steel. With the invention of the Bessemer process and other modern steel making procedures, wrought iron became merely a decorative material with nostalgic attachment. Again, the modern irons and steels are far superior to it. Today, except for recycled old structural wrought iron, the term applies to the look, and not the actual material.
Up until modern gunsmithing techniques and stronger steels, shotgun barrels were made by a wrapping and welding process that produced a strong barrel. The pattern and barrel type was called a "Damascus Shotgun Barrel." Once again, modern and superior materials have replaces it. The pattern is often superimposed on a modern barrel for looks.
Mokume' Gane is a similar material made from non-ferrous materials. Brass, copper, and nickel are common in mokume'. It is even make in platinum and gold for jewelry purposes. Mokume' has a wood grained ( the name means "wood grained metal", in Japanese) look, and is often patterned similar to damascus steel ( ladder, random, raindrop, etc.)
Damascus steel is used occasionally for decorative iron work purposes, but there is no advantage beyond the aesthetics. The high cost of such pieces of work make them for those who purchase what the masses can't afford.
So, instead of trying to have a project with no actual hypothesis to explore, I would suggest that you either pick a different topic, or modify the one on damascus steel to be applies specifically to knives and swords. There could be a lot of experiments on flexibility, cutting ability, edge retention, impact resistance, etc, that would give scientific results as to which is superior, damascus or mono-steel. However, this subject will never be put to rest with a scientific study, as the appeal of damascus is aesthetic and not solely material science.
Stacy E. Apelt, FSA,Scot
You are asking an apples to oranges question.
Your query is like saying, "Other than surgery, is there any use where a scalpel is used, and is it better than other knives?"
Since damascus steel is a knife and sword material, its use and any discussion of superiority would have to be within that field. That is a big topic in itself. There are many who give damascus all sorts of mystic qualities, but the long and short of it is that the material was made to produce a high quality product in a by-gone day when there was no quality control, and metallurgy was non-existent. Besides resistance to breakage ( and that is argued,too) there is no real modern day advantage to damascus beyond the looks.That alone makes it worth the large and costly effort to produce damascus swords and knives.
Damascus steel was developed for swords and knives in the form of wootz steel. It was folded to even out the carbon content, distribute the impurities, and give it more strength. In this day of modern metallurgy and high quality steels, there is no real advantage to damascus ,now. The attractive look, the proof that the smith is capable of producing such a product, and the newer process of mosaic damascus make it a good medium for high end knives. I would venture to guess that nearly 95% of all knives sold over $1000 are made in damascus.
In the modern sense, damascus steel is just a nostalgic term, as the steel called by that name is more properly called "Pattern Welded Steel".
The technique of making tamahagane for authentic Japanese swords is very similar to making the original damascus steel. Tamahagane is still made the same way as it was 700 years ago. Some modern tools, such as power hammers are used, but the process is still the same.
Small amounts of wootz and bulat steel ( the Russian equivalent of wootz) are still produced, but it is quite an intensive process.The sole purpose of this output is the making of wootz knife blades.
Wrought iron was also made by drawing out and folding the iron. This distributed the silicon slag evenly and made a much higher strength steel. With the invention of the Bessemer process and other modern steel making procedures, wrought iron became merely a decorative material with nostalgic attachment. Again, the modern irons and steels are far superior to it. Today, except for recycled old structural wrought iron, the term applies to the look, and not the actual material.
Up until modern gunsmithing techniques and stronger steels, shotgun barrels were made by a wrapping and welding process that produced a strong barrel. The pattern and barrel type was called a "Damascus Shotgun Barrel." Once again, modern and superior materials have replaces it. The pattern is often superimposed on a modern barrel for looks.
Mokume' Gane is a similar material made from non-ferrous materials. Brass, copper, and nickel are common in mokume'. It is even make in platinum and gold for jewelry purposes. Mokume' has a wood grained ( the name means "wood grained metal", in Japanese) look, and is often patterned similar to damascus steel ( ladder, random, raindrop, etc.)
Damascus steel is used occasionally for decorative iron work purposes, but there is no advantage beyond the aesthetics. The high cost of such pieces of work make them for those who purchase what the masses can't afford.
So, instead of trying to have a project with no actual hypothesis to explore, I would suggest that you either pick a different topic, or modify the one on damascus steel to be applies specifically to knives and swords. There could be a lot of experiments on flexibility, cutting ability, edge retention, impact resistance, etc, that would give scientific results as to which is superior, damascus or mono-steel. However, this subject will never be put to rest with a scientific study, as the appeal of damascus is aesthetic and not solely material science.
Stacy E. Apelt, FSA,Scot
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To ask that question, I guess you have to ask if art has any useful function in society. My opinion is that it does. How else would the arts have thrived througout history if they didn't serve a very important function in the lives of men.
Damascus, in modern society, is made for the purpose of art (and of preservation of history) since, as Stacy suggested, it really has no clear advantage over modern steel. However, I argue that it's advantage over modern steel IS its intrinsic artistic factor and that many smiths enjoy creating it.
--nathan
Damascus, in modern society, is made for the purpose of art (and of preservation of history) since, as Stacy suggested, it really has no clear advantage over modern steel. However, I argue that it's advantage over modern steel IS its intrinsic artistic factor and that many smiths enjoy creating it.
--nathan
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If you're asking whether it would be useful to make modern dies and industrial cutting blades out of damascus, I'd have to guess the answer would be a resounding "no", based on cost alone.
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I second the motion to pick a new project, if it's not too late. Trying to squeeze knives into every project you do in school can get you into trouble. I once chose "How to make a knife" for a demonstrative speech, in speech class.. ended up getting a bad grade trying to boil the process down to fit 7 minutes, went over by 2 minutes and still left out a lot, obviously.
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I received a pretty solid education in materials and processes when I got my degree in Product Design. I've worked in different industries ranging from agricultural to medical and many things in between. I have never seen pattern welded steel used in any industry except cutlery and decorative things like jewelry. You do not see it used in military applications, airplanes, satellites, surgery, automobiles or appliances. That's not to say that it isn't used anywhere, but I've never seen it.
You do see heterogeneous metals used to good effect, but they're case hardened, or plated - not pattern welded
You do see heterogeneous metals used to good effect, but they're case hardened, or plated - not pattern welded
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I use Damascus almost exclusively. But there is no practice use in today world.
Alloys have replace Composites steels like Damascus. I build a Damascus knife only for one main reason. It is always about the look.
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