Is ease of sharpening that important?

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Feb 2, 2003
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I've had knives since I was a kid and never had problems getting a good edge. I like a toothy edge on my bigger working folders and straight knives and a razor edge on my little blades, chisels and plane irons. I've had all kinds of knives from cheap Opinels to Sebbies and a spydie with S30V and I hand sharpen HSS and cobalt drills. I use DMT stones, the little 2 inch ones and a 6 inch xcourse one and a leather strop for all my sharpening. I never understood why knife makers only harden to Rc 60-61 at the most. Most cite ease of sharpening as the reason but I'll rather have a blade at Rc66-68 and not have to sharpen for a while even when cutting abrasive stuff than so called ease of sharpening. I don't see the point of having another "supersteel" when its only the same hardness or even less than the previous "supersteel".

Come on knife makers lets have some cobalt HSS blades at Rc68.
 
Don't most steels used to make knife blades become brittle before the 66RC mark?

I'd rather sharpen a blade than have to work around/fix serious blade chipping.
 
Ease of sharpening is very relative, IMO. I think of it more as the amount of maintenance a blade needs. A 56 Rc AUS-6 blade that has to be constantly maintained is "easy to sharpen", but requires a lot more work to keep sharp than a similar one of 60 Rc ATS-34. Take some of the very wear resistant steels too hard, and they might hold an edge longer without wear or rolling, but you also might get chips during rougher use, and spend a lot of time grinding them out. I'd like harder blades for some uses, but higher hardness does limit what you can do with a knife, and though I enjoy a specialized tool that does certain jobs exceptionally well, I still appreciate the happy medium of acceptable wear resistance and toughness (and relatively low maintenance) that we see with most quality cutlery steels at ~60Rc. I think that "happy medium" is what makers want, since they have no control over what you will use a knife for, and that suits me, because I don't want to carry a variety of knives to cover a variety of uses.
 
It's my understanding that HSS for tools is actually less hard than what you see knives at. For example, in my machine tooling course, we're using M2 to turn aluminum, and this is at 58Rc. Benchmade however hardens their M2 steeled knives to 60-62.

Carbide tools/bits are significantly harder, but notice how you almost never see an actual carbide tool. It's always the tip that's carbide, and it's affixed to a softer, more flexible base. One that won't shatter under tool pressure.

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This is because carbides are much more brittle and inflexible, something that doesn't jive with knives. A fully carbide knife would snap or shatter doing things we wouldn't think twice about doing with a normal knife.

Cobalt is a different beast entirely than steels. There are a couple cobalt alloys that are used in knives (mostly high-end customs) such as Stellite 6K or Talonite. These are also more brittle than steel, and have significantly less impact resistance. What they do have instead is slickness. The friction between cobalt and whatever you're cutting is much less than steel and whatever you're cutting. I read somewhere that these cobalts were originally developed for jet engines, because they have less friction with the air than steels or titaniums. It's the slickness that makes them better (in some applications) than steel (plus the fact they don't rust is appealing).

It's important to note that while cobalt alloys like Talonite are very comparable to high-end knife steels like CMPS30V in terms of edge retention, that they are actually softer, not harder. The lower friction and abrasiveness of the metal compared to steel is what makes it a viable alternative and gives it comparable wear characteristics.

Steels themselves get very brittle above 62Rc, which is why you'll almost never see a knife that hard. Rarely, you'll see a forged knife advertized at up to 65Rc, but this is differentially hardened, meaning only the edge is that hard. The rest of the knife is much softer. Otherwise, the knife would break or shatter without much stress. You'll only see a couple steels (M2, D2, A2 - all tool steels) taken above 60Rc, with 62Rc as the upper limit. The upper limit for modern uber-steels (154CM, ATS-34, VG-10, S30V) is 59-60Rc.

All this technical mumbo-jumbo aside, knives are entirely different than machining tools. Most machining tools in HSS or carbide will easily bore through or turn aluminum without ever needing sharpening, or for a long, long time. However, this same tool couldn't cut skin or slice paper worth a rat's ass. On the flip side, trying to machine aluminum (like chamfer it or something) with a knife would destroy the knife's edge almost instantly. Even the "sharpened prybar" kind of knives like Striders can't handle that kind of thing. They're two completely different applications, and require two completely different kinds of tools. Think about this: you can easilly drill aluminum with a 118 degree carbide drill. Would you try drilling stainless steel with a 118 degree drill? Heeeeellllll no! You'd be resharpening every hundered thousandths. Different applications require different tools.

The point of all this is that "ease of sharpening" really isn't the key factor. In almost every case you'll see that a high-end knife will be hardened to the point where it's as hard (and thus wear-resistant) as possible, but not so brittle that it chips away. One notable exception is Chris Reeve's knives, as he hardens the S30V on his knives to "only" 58-59Rc, but this is almost more a property of that particular steel; S30V's structure is exceptionally wear resistant compared to many other high-end steels and is softer perhaps for "ease of sharpening" and maybe to reduce the possiblility of chipping, yet still hard enough to resist rolling of the edge, a problem if a steel is too soft.

Manufacturers give their customers what they want, and right now, what we want in our high-end knives is blades that last a long time without sharpening. If this was possible with steel blades at 68Rc, trust me, that's what we'd see. But knives with steel blades that hard simply don't work. The edge would chip, the tip would break off when you set it on the table, and the blade would shatter when you dropped it on the ground.

That's with current technology anyway. In the future, I'm sure we'll see even better stuff.




BTW, I might be talking out of my @$$ on a couple points, since I'm mostly repeating what I've heard/read/learned, so if I'm wrong, please correct me.
 
Shing said:
I hand sharpen HSS and cobalt drills. I use DMT stones, the little 2 inch ones and a 6 inch xcourse one and a leather strop for all my sharpening.
Do you hand sharpen drills with your DMT stones, or do you use a wheel grinder? I learned on a wheel grinder, and I'd hate to have to think of doing it entirely with stones.

On the flip side, using a wheel grinder to sharpen a knife is just about the worst thing you can do to a knife short of stabbing concrete, bending it in a vice, or beating it with a sledgehammer.

Firstly, you're going to remove way too much material. Worse, you'll destroy the heat treat. If you've hand sharpened drills, you know the rule: if it turns blue, you gotta redo. The rule at least, if not the stupid rhyme. When using a wheel grinder, you can easily see what heat does to the steel. It's best when it remains the same color as the rest of the tool. Yellow is OK, but slow down. If the steel turns blue, you've ruined that part of the tool, and it won't work worth a damn. Way too soft. It's extremely easy to do this with a knife blade, since they're so thin. The edge will get way too hot extremely quick. Even if you think you're cooling it fast enough, and you don't see yellow or blue, it's probably still too hot at the very edge. And if somehow you manage to not destroy the heat treat, you're still removing too much material.

Even if you use a belt grinder, you have to watch the temperature else you could ruin the blade.

Hand sharpening drills or shaping cutting tools on a wheel grinder takes no time at all, but that's more because of the wheel grinder, not the metal you're grinding. There's little "ease of sharpening" to worry about with a wheel grinder, even with super-hard carbides or super-slick cobalts.
 
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