Is forging always necessary?

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Grimp2001

Joined
Jan 20, 2018
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Hi, I have a question about making knives from carbon steel files. I have made quite a few of these from old farriers files, which are extremely hard but I am able to grind using zirconium oxide belts. They have not been previously annealed so take quite a while to grind, but they get there in the end. The blades are then hand sanded to about 1500 - 2000 grit and they hold shaving sharp edges. I have made both bushcraft style blades and kitchen knives using this method. I don't heat treat them however as I currently don't have access to a forge (I am working on an induction forge), so my question is - do I necessarily need to anneal, grind then heat/quench if the blades already do what I need them to do? Thanks.
 
no, if you are using hardened files you do not need to anneal, grind and heat treat them. note that if the blade turns a blue color while grinding on a machine, it has lost its hardness and will need to be re-heat treated.
 
Grimp2001 said:
Hi, I have a question about making knives from carbon steel files. I have made quite a few of these from old farriers files, which are extremely hard but I am able to grind using zirconium oxide belts. They have not been previously annealed so take quite a while to grind, but they get there in the end. The blades are then hand sanded to about 1500 - 2000 grit and they hold shaving sharp edges. I have made both bushcraft style blades and kitchen knives using this method. I don't heat treat them however as I currently don't have access to a forge (I am working on an induction forge), so my question is - do I necessarily need to anneal, grind then heat/quench if the blades already do what I need them to do? Thanks.
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You can temper them twice , say on 250 celsius .I think that they are too hard for knife . . . .
 
If you made a simple blow torch forge to anneal,grind then heat treat,you would make your life a lot easier.
 
John mc c said:
If you made a simple blow torch forge to anneal,grind then heat treat,you would make your life a lot easier.
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I don t think so ....If you use ceramic belts , they will last longer on hardened steel, much longer .Actually they are designed for hardened steel . Why I should risk to HT them again ?
 
Thanks guys, I wish I'd come on here sooner! I might try tempering in the oven but so far things are working out ok. Except for one thing! Because the files are so hard they are killing all my drill bits, including carbide tipped masonry bits and other ones that claim to be able to drill hardened steel. Any suggestions?
 
Grimp2001 said:
Thanks guys, I wish I'd come on here sooner! I might try tempering in the oven but so far things are working out ok. Except for one thing! Because the files are so hard they are killing all my drill bits, including carbide tipped masonry bits and other ones that claim to be able to drill hardened steel. Any suggestions?
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They need to be sharpened to drill easy hardened steel .Buy drill bits for ceramic tile .. . .they are already sharpened in proper way to drill steel .
 
I have never tried it, but apparently carbide-tipped masonry bits work great on hardened steel (I know Natlek is a huge fan). The other option is, if you have a good torch, to suspend the blade portion of the file in water so it doesn't get hot and heat the tang portion to a dull red a couple times. This will anneal it sufficiently for drilling holes.

Edit: I don't recommend the expensive, pure carbide drill bits in a drill press. They are so brittle that you will very likely ruin it. Don't ask me how I know...
 
Natlek said:
@Nathan , 36 or 50 grit , which one you recommended ?
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I use 50 grit here, but I also do a lot of roughing in the annealed state on a milling machine. I think either would work, personally I would use 50 just because I have more experience with it.

I agree with avoiding a re-heat treat, the odds of equaling the quality of the heat treat from Nicholson with a torch is low, at least without much experience. that said I would probably put it in the oven at about 400, maybe 450 and temper it back a little, files are maybe a little too hard for a knife. You may as well do this before you start grinding on it, the softer steel will grind better.
 
You can draw the tang back with a plumbers torch to make it easier to drill. Keep the blade in a bucket of water, and heat the tang to red, then let it air cool. Do not drop it in the water! Red hot steel in water is a great way to crack it.

I agree with Nathan. Temper at 400-450 2hx2. You will probably end up at Rc61-62. To re heat treat the steel found in a Nicholson file, you need precise temp control, and the right quench medium, typically parks 50 or DT-48. It’s basically 1095/W1, with a bit over 1% carbon. Easy to mess up with back yard heat treat equipment.

Edit: sorry, someone already suggested drawing the tang back.
 
Willie71 said:
You can draw the tang back with a plumbers torch to make it easier to drill. Keep the blade in a bucket of water, and heat the tang to red, then let it air cool. Do not drop it in the water! Red hot steel in water is a great way to crack it.

I agree with Nathan. Temper at 400-450 2hx2. You will probably end up at Rc61-62. To re heat treat the steel found in a Nicholson file, you need precise temp control, and the right quench medium, typically parks 50 or DT-48. It’s basically 1095/W1, with a bit over 1% carbon. Easy to mess up with back yard heat treat equipment.

Edit: sorry, someone already suggested drawing the tang back.
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@ Willie71 , don t get me wrong but why I should draw the tang back with a plumbers torch to make it easier to drill when ceramic tile drill bits will drill hole in file till I say opss ? Why all that gymnastics ? Guys , quality ceramic tile drill bits WORKS on any known steel , and they last long time if you use them in right way ...try it !
 
Tenebr0s said:
Natlek - what's the brand you recommend? Are they carbide-tipped?
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Yes , I use this one from Alpen Austria ..hell of drill bits
drills on right are more rigid .. .

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Nathan the Machinist said:
I use 50 grit here, but I also do a lot of roughing in the annealed state on a milling machine. I think either would work, personally I would use 50 just because I have more experience with it.

I agree with avoiding a re-heat treat, the odds of equaling the quality of the heat treat from Nicholson with a torch is low, at least without much experience. that said I would probably put it in the oven at about 400, maybe 450 and temper it back a little, files are maybe a little too hard for a knife. You may as well do this before you start grinding on it, the softer steel will grind better.
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50 or 60 I too think is the best grit to start with.

I was on a 36 or 40 grit kick for a while. Really "rrrrip" the steel off I thought. Then I got tired of chasing deep ass 36 grit scratches and realized a sharp 60 grit is fast as hell too for profiling and rough grinding.

60 grit does like 90% of all grinding for me.
 
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