Is it a flux or a can in liquid form?

Fred.Rowe

Fred.Rowe

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
May 2, 2004
Messages
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Borax has eaten the floors out of many a forge. I've rebuilt my forges numerous times as a result of using borax to flux billets as many of you have.
I tried kerosene after reading a couple of how to threads. My early results were disappointing. There were problems with de-lamination along the edges of the billets.

I kept at the trial and error, mostly error, until I read a thread by Ron Newton on the custom knife forum.

The major flaw in my thinking was treating the hydrocarbon solvent as if it were borax, a major mistake.
What Ron Newton pointed out was the need to weld the billet solidly before the first weld is attempted.
This pic was copied from Ron's thread. It shows were to weld the billet; at one inch intervals along both sides and along both edges on each end.
The reason for doing this is to keep the thinner sheets of steel that make up the billet, from moving when they are being bought to welding temperature in the forge.

The reason my earlier attempts at using hydrocarbon solvent failed is the pieces of steel in the billet were moving as it was heating in the forge.
You can get away with not fully welding billets when using borax, because each piece is covered in liquid borax and it doesn't make much difference if they move a little.
But when you use a hydrocarbon solvent, welding the billet so there is no movement is a must, because if the billet pieces move just a little they will crack the carbon jacket [carbon can] that forms around the billet.
When you heat a billet soaked in hydrocarbon solvent it completely encases the billet in a solid carbon jacket.
When I started thinking of hydrocarbon solvent as a Canister weld in liquid form I started getting 100% solid welds.

What kind of results are you getting with hydrocarbon solvents?

orig.jpg
 
I have a friend or two that does this, but I never bothered. I do a lot of non-standard stacking that this process wouldn't work for.
The forges I use have a high resistance to flux, and I can get a few thousand pounds of steel through a forge before replacing the shell.
Del
 
I can't comment on hydrocarbon welding or flux based for that matter as I have limited experience.

But....

I have heard of folks using stainless trays/liners in their forge to protect the insulation from the flux. It seems that flux is more versitile/forgiving so it makes sense to me to try alternatives that allow me to use it.

Rick
 
Last edited:
Rick is on the spot.
Put in a replacable floor or tray and let it catch all the borax.
Using Bubble Alumina or a hard refractory will also make flux errosion much less a problem.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I can't comment on hydrocarbon welding or flux based for that matter as I have limited experience.

But....

I have heard of folks using stainless trays/liners in their forge to protect the insulation from the flux. It seems that flux is more versitile/forgiving so it makes sense to me to try alternatives that allow me to use it.

Rick
Click to expand...
Rick,

What about borax do you find more versatile than using hydrocarbon solvent? I do quite a bit of canister welding, which I consider almost a hundred percent effective. I believe hydrocarbon solvent to be on par with using canisters.
This is just my experience, Fred
 
Admittedly, Fred....... it is an educated opinion at best.... not based on extensive personal experience. I apologise if I'm out of line or way off base. I've spent a lot of time in Wally Hayes' shop watching him make his damascus and I've delved into a bit of San Mai, myself. It seems to me that the hydrocarbon process is more particular in it's excecution than flux is. Perhaps, the upkeep of a flux operation makes the extra prep of Hydrocarbon worth the effort? I'm just trying to wrap my head around it, as somebody who is on the cusp of increased forgewelding in my own operation.

Rick
 
Could you avoid slag inclusions with the kerosene?


Seems to me it would just absorb in if it was trapped
 
12345678910 said:
Could you avoid slag inclusions with the kerosene?


Seems to me it would just absorb in if it was trapped
Click to expand...

As Rick says there is more prep work with HS. Just like borax prep, the surface of the material to be welded needs to be ground clean. But the HS creates a closed container around the billet, instead of coating each piece of steel. The mating surfaces stay clean and are not affected by the HS. Another added step with the solvent is after the billet is pressed and before it is drawn out, the surfaces should be ground clean. I use a cup stone on a full size right angle grinder to clean the surfaces. If you don't clean the surfaces and draw the billet out the carbon jacket will be pressed into the surface of the billet.
If these steps are followed there is no slag to include.
I think the extra steps needed to use HS is time better spent than cleaning up the borax flux. It is simply cleaner.
Hope this makes since.

Rick Marchand said:
Admittedly, Fred....... it is an educated opinion at best.... not based on extensive personal experience. I apologise if I'm out of line or way off base. I've spent a lot of time in Wally Hayes' shop watching him make his damascus and I've delved into a bit of San Mai, myself. It seems to me that the hydrocarbon process is more particular in it's excecution than flux is. Perhaps, the upkeep of a flux operation makes the extra prep of Hydrocarbon worth the effort? I'm just trying to wrap my head around it, as somebody who is on the cusp of increased forgewelding in my own operation.

Rick
Click to expand...

Rick,

Educated opinions are the best kind.:D There is no out of line in this discourse, I respect your opinion and am interested in your views.
I would love to have the opportunity to work with Wally Hayes. I would consider that time well spent.

I still use borax in certain situations, but if I am welding up a particularly challenging billet and want to be 100% sure of the outcome, I would use the hydrocarbon solvent.
By the way, the 1 inch weld rule is only needed with the original billet and its thinner pieces. When you are welding 5/16" or larger pieces in the stack there is no need for the side welds.

I purchased the 5 inch cup stone and big right angle grinder just for damascus. They are worth the money. They make surface prep, scale and or carbon removal easy and quick.

Regards, Fred
 
I still like dry welding, no flux at all unless you want a little extra protection. Everything I do is dry welded. I only have to rebuild my forge about once a year. It does take a little extra time but for me it is worth it. I have tried billets were I do not clean the initial layers. So long as it is just mill scale and not borax or other form of non ferrous based material, I have not had any problems. I do clean the layers upon re-stacking though and even mill or surface grind if I really want a clean non-visible final weldment. Usually in an intricate mosaic or the like I will SG the final re-stack.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I can't comment on hydrocarbon welding or flux based for that matter as I have limited experience.

But....

I have heard of folks using stainless trays/liners in their forge to protect the insulation from the flux. It seems that flux is more versitile/forgiving so it makes sense to me to try alternatives that allow me to use it.

Rick
Click to expand...

bladsmth said:
Rick is on the spot.
Put in a replacable floor or tray and let it catch all the borax.
Using Bubble Alumina or a hard refractory will also make flux errosion much less a problem.
Click to expand...

So in the case of a replaceable floor/liner, just what grade of SS or hard refractory would you use? I am on the cusp of building my first real forge, still gathering parts, but it is something I may like to design in just incase I decide I would like to do a bit of forge welding.
 
I bought a 12 x 24 ceramic kiln shelf and cut it into 6 pieces. It works well, but the guy at the pottery supply shop says it will work even better if I paint a slip coat of bubble alumina on it. He said that pottery folks use some glazes that will eat some stuff up and the bubble alumina drastically extend the life of the shelves. The tile cost me $36, so that's $6 per disposable forge floor. Money well spent. With that said, I just did my first two Ferry flip mosaic billets. The first one I soaked in kerosene and after the first weld hit the edges with borax. I had a couple of little flaws in the edge on one end. The second one, I soak it in kerosene and wrapped it damp in heat treat foil. I still dusted it with a little borax after welding it up in the "foil can" just to be safe. I also let the billet soak for about 10 minutes between the tow initial welding passes on the press. The foil valiantly gave it's life for the cause, but the billet came out pretty much perfect after cleaning up the edges to get rid of the welds and rough spots.
 
Originally, I made a tray for my forge from a sheet of SS, with bent up edges. That was poured with a 1" layer of Mizzou 3000 degree Refractory. I coated that with bubble alumina. It caught all the flux drippings. The Mizzou alone would have been fine, as it is highly resistant to flux.

Later, when re-lining the forge, I just poured the Mizzou floor in place and coated it with bubble alumina. I have been using the current floor for years without problem.
 
jdm61 said:
I bought a 12 x 24 ceramic kiln shelf and cut it into 6 pieces. It works well, but the guy at the pottery supply shop says it will work even better if I paint a slip coat of bubble alumina on it. He said that pottery folks use some glazes that will eat some stuff up and the bubble alumina drastically extend the life of the shelves. The tile cost me $36, so that's $6 per disposable forge floor. Money well spent. With that said, I just did my first two Ferry flip mosaic billets. The first one I soaked in kerosene and after the first weld hit the edges with borax. I had a couple of little flaws in the edge on one end. The second one, I soak it in kerosene and wrapped it damp in heat treat foil. I still dusted it with a little borax after welding it up in the "foil can" just to be safe. I also let the billet soak for about 10 minutes between the tow initial welding passes on the press. The foil valiantly gave it's life for the cause, but the billet came out pretty much perfect after cleaning up the edges to get rid of the welds and rough spots.
Click to expand...

Have you tried welding the sides of your billet at one inch intervals when using kerosene? I was getting little separations along the edge of the billet before I started doing the one inch weld as you mention above.

Fred
 
Please don't ban me for saying this. I hate borax. Ok, I feel better now, I said it. You know the way that stuff drifts around in the air after its applied to the billet. Its enough to make a man sneeze. :)

Now all you Twenty Mule Team folks don't take offense at this. I just had a weird week, Two hospital visits an MRI, a Bone Scan and the doc says I'm great.

Life is just weird.

Fred
 
I don't blame you at all. It is one of those necessary evils. I use very little of it now though. Bought 300 lbs of anhydrous about 4 years ago and I think I have about 275lbs left. Most of it winds up on the floor but I still use it on occasion for a bit of extra protection.
 
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