Is it kosher to vamp on the Sharpfinger profile?

MatthewVanitas

MatthewVanitas

Go Army, Beat Navy!
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
467
I rather like the Sharpfinger profile, but the current production versions are all made in China. I could buy an old-production US version, but I was thinking to send a little business towards a teenage knifemaker BFC member.

Would it be inappropriate or illegal to have him make me a knife inspired by the Sharpfinger design? It seems that there are some custom makers who've made knives pretty similar to the Sharpfinger, so maybe there's some precedent.

5_70499.jpg


Clearly, you can't call it a "sharpfinger", but is it fair for a custom knifemaker to make something quite similar? Or would that be untethical, intellectual property theft, etc? Or has the design been around long enough to be a "classic American profile"?

Thanks for any tips. If I have him make me one I'm thinking antler scales, maybe get crazy and try coffin-shaped scales. I'm also thinking that a mini-version of the Schrade Deerslayer would be cool:


15OT.jpg


Any input?
 
MatthewVanitas said:
Thanks for any tips. If I have him make me one I'm thinking antler scales, maybe get crazy and try coffin-shaped scales.
Click to expand...

If you wanted an EXACT COPY, that might be a tad shameful.

But if you're having one custom made, you're almost certainly NOT going to use the same steel. That's almost enough to set it apart right there. But by the time you start talking about antler handles, let alone coffin-shaped antler handles, you've made major design changes and you've got a completely new knife.

I, for one, think you're completely fine. No worries.

Mike
 
i made some back when i first started making knives but i changed the design a little and used mule deer for the handle. i agree that it would be ok to make one similar but with the changes you mention.
 
i ll bet that if you look around that the knife was predated to one that looks alot liek the one you pictured

man has been making knives and KSO for what like 3000 years or longer so its not easy to come up with something thats not like another style

best bet is to tell the maker you want to do the work that you want some thing like the sharp finger (enclose pic. for them) but you want to have changes made and then let them know what your after
that should get you really close to what your after and not be tracing the knife and then grinding
 
Even though Bob Loveless is credited with having the first factory colab, with Schrade being the manufacturer. (Schrade Loveless Drop Point Hunter with Thomas Lamb grip), there was another.

The Schrade Sharp Finger was a Colab with L.C. Finger who make countless knives in this style. Schrade used the design on two knives. The Little Finger and I forget the name of the larger version.

Sadly L.C. Finger never got the credit for the design. Is it possible that this was one of the first and most Successful factory rip-offs of a Custom Maker? One wonders.

Seems to me, that if you have a Custom Maker make a version of the Little Finger for you, it is coming back full circle to where it belongs. From the shop of a real custom Maker. The way it was originally intended.

It would be nice to see L.C. given credit for his design rather than Schrade, who only copied.

So "Go for it!" and give L.C. Finger Credit. He is no longer with us but I,m sure he will appreciate it!

Mike Lovett
http://knifelegends.com/ Featured Artist
 
Last edited:
MatthewVanitas said:
I rather like the Sharpfinger profile, but the current production versions are all made in China. I could buy an old-production US version, but I was thinking to send a little business towards a teenage knifemaker BFC member.

Would it be inappropriate or illegal to have him make me a knife inspired by the Sharpfinger design? It seems that there are some custom makers who've made knives pretty similar to the Sharpfinger, so maybe there's some precedent.

5_70499.jpg


Clearly, you can't call it a "sharpfinger", but is it fair for a custom knifemaker to make something quite similar? Or would that be untethical, intellectual property theft, etc? Or has the design been around long enough to be a "classic American profile"?

Thanks for any tips. If I have him make me one I'm thinking antler scales, maybe get crazy and try coffin-shaped scales. I'm also thinking that a mini-version of the Schrade Deerslayer would be cool:


15OT.jpg


Any input?
Click to expand...

The Deerslayer was design patented by Henry Baer circa 1964. The Sharpfinger came ten years later and was much smaller. Both were originally 1095HC high carbon steel. Late in the company's history, circa 2002, they began making them from stainless. After Schrade folded, Camillus picked up the design for their Gran'Pa knife. As did United Cutlery through their Arrowhead manufacturing division. Artifact blanks of these are available on eBay right now. As are "a tribute to" blanks from a lot of folks, including some using Damascus steel. Bear & Son also makes them in several handle materials and steels.

The design patent on the deerslayer is long expired. I've never found a design patent on the Sharpfinger. While the current owner of the rest of the Imperial Schrade intellectual property may consider both designs "trade dress", I doubt you would be infracting anything by having one or two of either made for your own use and enjoyment.

I've seen the attribution of the Sharpfinger design to L.C. Finger before, but I've not seen any of his work, or anything in writing to associate him with the pattern. Can someone direct me to the knives of this maker? I would be interested in researching this to see if there is really anything to it.

Codger
 
That's a real interesting bit of information Mike. The Sharp Finger has always been one of my favorites.
 
Codger, I wouldn't know where to start looking. Oddly enough, I as a young boy, owned both. I do remember the smaller version being available for years in our local Hard Ware stores. I always assumed the Smaller version came first. I still have one of each here. There was also a Drop Point version.

I do vividly remember seeing L.C.'s knives pictured beside Schrades version, in which Schrade did refer to L.C. Finger as the designer. This was in the very early sixties.

This is however not unusual. Both Al Mar and Kershaw came out with the forward locking bar on their knives. At one time they both worked as design engineers for Gerber. Of course both Al Mar and Kershaw started they're own companies. Both claimed to be the originator of the forward lock. But in truth, the design was by Mr. Fuller, Dick Durough, and Harvey McBurnette. Fuller lost his hand in a tread mill accident at Good Year Tire and Rubber in Gadsden Ala. This is what brought on the design. They sent the design to Gerber, who ignored it. When Mar, and Kershaw left Gerber, they both came out with the design.

It took over 20 years for them to get the credit. And happily they did finally receive some monies for their design.

Schrade may have gotten a patent. I for one can't think of any part for the knife that qualify as different enough to deserve a paten. But be that as it may, it doesn't prove that Schrade was the first by a long shot. I can think of several companies, and custom knife makers right this minute that have threated makers with suites, when in fact, the companies ripped the design from other sources.

The compound edge is a prime example of this. Bob Loveless and I separately came out with this design in 89 -90. But there are makers out there warning other makers not to use it as they have just developed it. The Greeks did them Century's ago.

I developed a Katana grind, Loveless grip hybrid in the late 80's. Cold steel looked at it at the Shot Show that year. Said that it wouldn't sell. A few months later they came out with the Recon Tanto. and later the SR-7 ( I think this is what it is called). Yet again, they came out with the black Bear. A very open and terrible copy of the Loveless Big Bear.. They will tell you and you can read in the mag's how and why they developed all of these. Yeah! BS!!!

So I'm not surprise if they had a patent. Not one bit. I could list many,. many rip off's the industry has perpetuated on the Custom Makers.

With out a word of thanks!

The Chinese are the worst of all at this.

Mike
 
That clears up a lot, so looks like I'll be commissioning a sharpfinger-esque knife from the kid.

I thought a bit more about the coffin-shaped handles, and am thinking they wouldn't quite suit a blade of this curvature. Here's what I'm thinking:

*carbon blade (what thickness did Schrade use? I'm thinking to go a little thicker for overall utility work, since I don't skin/cape). Thinking a nice mustard/vinegar patina, as I've got cool effects on that in the past.
*Around 3" blade length
*Antler scales, similar in shape to the standard, but giving the maker some leeway for creativity
*A bit of checkering/ridging on the choil and back of the blade for grip

That's what I've got so far. If anyone has any "this would be neat to try on that design" ideas, the prospective maker is also following the thread.

(Not trying to be mysterious, just didn't want to complicate his plans. He can feel free to introduce himself and share ideas if he likes, doesn't bother me.)
 
This is the Marbles Fishknife illustrated circa 1911.

vgiu7n.jpg


...and a W. H. Morley & Sons (A. Kastor & Bros) from the same time period.

2uzotw3.jpg

30kczz5.jpg

... these can also be seen with A. W. Wadsworth & Son markings. Did Alfred or Webster design this knife? Is it the direct ancestor of the Sharpfinger?

o7smdy.jpg


The difficulty with design patents is that they don't have the brief description, detailed description, and list of claims present in a utility patent. Make the knife you want to make. And if anyone runs across an example of L. C. Finger's work which is similar to these two Schrades, or an original ad mentioning L.C. Finger as a designer of the Woodsman or Sharpfinger, please bring it to my attention! I will be more than happy to give the designer his due! To date, I have done the most extensive research ever presented on these two Schrade patterns, and I am always looking for more information!

Codger
 
I can't tell from the pictures, and have never seen one of these in person. so please bear with me. Does the Schrade version have a flat grind or a convex grind? (I consider convex to be rounded similar to ), made from grinding directly on a contact wheel).

To end all the mystery, I am the young knife maker that MatthewVanitas has commissioned to make the knife. I will be making it with a convex grind from an 8" wheel, and would consider that completely different from a Schrade if it's a flat grind.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, there is a lot of valuable information in here.
Jeff W.
 
The schrade is ground on a wheel lengthwise. This gives it a much thicker blade toward the ricasso, but is in reality a flat grind. . There have been many threads here about flat verses flat verses convex. I can't tell you how many Sharpfingers I have regrind for hunters wanting a very fine edge. These were all ground to a full hollow here in the Lovett Shop. Oddly enough, I have ground countless 110 buck folders from a semi to full Hollow grind with the same good results. The buck use to be manufactured with a very thick, convex edge following a shallow hollow grind. When thinned out to a fine edge, and the hollow pushed all the way to the top of the spine, it becomes a real cutter. Fopr what its worth, the Schrade looks identical to the LC Finger Knives except the poor Schrade grind and of course the deralin slabs on the Schrade.

Mike
 
I think I've messed up the terms again (Hate doing that) I hollow grind, I thought it was the same thing as convex grind.and I couldn't think of the term "Hollow" for some reason earlier. My apologies.
Keep Grinding,
Jeff
 
The first years sharpfingers were indeed plain, or flat ground. Circa 2002, they began hollow grinding them. This was when they shifted production steel from 1095HC to stainless.
 
No harm Jeff. Hollow grind is Concave, convex slightly swells thicker in the center of the blade. Flat is supposed to be just that. Flat. But most times it is slightly convex.

Silly way to remember it, but as a kid I had a hard time remembering which was which between convex, and concave. Then It hit me. concave=cave is a hollow in the earth. Hollow=cave=concave blade. Ahh! Kids!

Codger. It took them long enough!

Mike
 
That's a simple and easy way to remember hollow Mike, thanks. I commonly come up with weird things like that to remember school terms, why I can remember something completely unrelated instead of just the typical thing I will never know.
Had a belt wear out (Last 60 grit), and am going to have to oder some more form Pop's before I can keep working on the knife though, so pics will have to wait a few days fellas. sorry.
Jeff
 
Alrightly boys, and girls, tell me what ya think:
LC1.jpg
It's not been HT'd yet. Too close to the Sharpfinger? Not close enough? What ya think?
Jeff W.
 
One of the things that make the Sharp finger work so well is the "S" from the tip of the blade to the but of the grip. We use to call them Sweep Points back in the day. It not only has a pleasing visual flow, but it greatly aids in it's designed work of skinning game. You can move in a fluid motion with it. I would like to see more drop in the tang here.

Mike
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top