Is it okay to beat the Snot out of Beckers

[Lawrence Helm]

Stvpourcia made some comments I inadequately addressed (before having any coffee) over on the Broken BK2 thread. After thinking about what he said, it seems to me they deserve a bit more (and separate) attention. Here is what he wrote,

They are two completely different animals. The 2's design doesn't worry me.

1217s break. If you beat the snot out of them, the design is fundamentally set to break. I have a nice broken on my shelf, didn't make it very far at all. Can I send it back? No, batoning is abuse and usmcs break.

Does the hidden tang make it weak? No. It's how it's shouldered up against the the guard that does and only during abuse.

The 2 is designed to take this abuse. Do some break? Yes, some axes break too. All things break.

You will never be able to fully rely on one tool, especially a knife, for ever. Nor will any one of us be forced to survive some fictional doomsday when all civilization disappears either.

It's a fun game to play, But the reality is that you've been bitten and soon you'll own more than one Becker anyway so whoo.[end quote]

In my early morning (before coffee) befuddlement I got his "beating the snot out of a 1217" comment confused with the photo of the broken BK2 and comment that started the thread. I apologized at the end of my note for getting the two confused, but in actuality in my mind and maybe in Stvpourcia's as well it seems the common understanding on the Becker thread (as well as several Youtube testing videos I watched) that you should feel free to beat the snot out of your Becker and not worry about it breaking. After rereading Stvpourcia's note (post 2 cups of coffee) he isn't disagreeing with that philosophy. It is not okay to beat the snot out of a KaBar 1217, but the Becker BK2 is built to handle it. And yet it was a broken BK2 that didn't handle it that started the Broken BK2 thread.

Way way back in some earlier thread I was taken to task for assuming that Chris of Prepared Minds didn't like the BK2 because it was too short to do a decent job of batoning. Several people wrote back that they could baton all day long with the BK2, but the photo shows someone breaking a BK2 by accidentally hitting it in the handle area -- or maybe he needed to hit it to break it loose and because it was so short the handle was the only thing available to hit. I assumed after reading that note that there must have been a manufacturing anomaly, a weak piece of steel used at the stress riser. If one goes to Amazon one won't find a warranty disclaimer like the one associated with the KaBar 1217. If it is indeed okay to beat the snot out of the BK2 then the breakage photographed in the other thread must have been due to a manufacturing anomaly. Everyone but this guy will have been okay beating the snot out of their BK2s.

But is that a good way to think? I see these guys doing it on the Youtube and it looks impressive, its nice to know the BK2, BK7, and BK9 will handle that, but I won't do it because years in engineering have convinced me that it isn't a good idea to treat metal in that fashion if you don't have to and I don't. I spoke of a manufacturing anomaly being the cause of the BK2 breaking but another thing to keep in mind is that there are strength-variables. Test 1000 BK2s "to destruction" and they will break at different points of pressure (and probably any TTD wouldn't break that many knives). 999 may break within acceptable parameters. My thought is that I might have the BK2 that would break at below the lower limit of acceptability. The "test to destruction" test is measurable in a laboratory. Whatever I do with my knife (and whatever the fellow did who broke his BK2) isn't.

Stvpourcia assumed that it was still safe to beat the snot out of a BK2. While I never until reading Stvpourcia's note gave it a lot of thought, at some level I assumed that it was not a good idea to use a BK2 in that fashion. Of course I'm no one to set any standards because I hike with my knives and don't beat the snot out of any of them. Stvpourcia seems to be saying, go ahead and beat the snot out of your BK2 and if it breaks, well you have other knives. Is that the way campers think? I guess that could work. Chances are you aren't going to break it; so the risk of breakage during a snot-beating activity is going to be low, but if you do break it you have other knives.

Lawrence

 

[NJBillK]

I know that I like having a knife that, at the very least, instills a feeling of durability. I have yet to find many, if any, that can offer that amount of comfort (?) at the same price point. Granted, a lot of that comes from the sheer fact that it is 1/4" thick, and if I was going to "beat on" any of my knives, I would likely feel that the bk2 could and would take it without a sideways look back at me.

Does that mean that one Should do that? That's not my call to make. Though if they are going to do so, now would be the time to do so, while they are still available. If i were worried about some form of socioeconomical collapse, then I would like to know the capabilites and durability of the items I do have stockpiled.

More to come if needed, gas tank is full, headed home...

 

[stvpourciau]

Also. I don't camp or hike like this. I prefer a,SAK.

But I do own a 2 and believe the sole purpose of knives like these are to be beaten on aka, batoned. What for? Again that's an ideological concern. But these are geared for it abd all items. Especially metal, Lawrence bringing a unique experience to this, eventually fail.


One of my favorites to beat one was stuck tang kabar Large heavy Bowie. It is not built anywhere close to a Becker but it's just as strong it stronger. Knives this tough are made to be tough on

 

[lamech]

Any item will wear out and break when abused. Yes the claim is the BK2 will take a licking and keep on ticking. I use mine to cut with, if i need to split wood i use the proper tool for the job, an ax, hawk, hatchet, splitting maul. Not the knife I'm depending on to process food or provide protection.
The right tool for the job. You may have other knives but do you always have them with you?

 

[JV3]

i'm all for using knives hard but there's a smarter way of going about it too even if the knife is built like a tank. like in this case i didn't even have to carve a wedge, i just grabbed one of the smaller pieces i've already split and use that as a wedge.

pulled out the knife and i completed the split with the wedge.

i never did like the idea of batoning a knife from start to finish - it's too easy to do and requires very little skill, like starting a fire with a bic lighter. how many times do people need to practice that before they move on to using a firesteel or more primitive means. same with batoning, they should practice their other knife skills instead.

as for that snapped bk-2, i'm betting something was already wrong with the steel and it's not because of the skeletonized handle either...several other pics of knives from other brands have been posted in this forum with snapped blades (within the solid cutting/edge part)...still saddens me to hear though that there's been a few beckers snapped like this recently.

 

[Ethan Becker]

Hey JV3......

Clever, very clever......

E

 

[granitestateofmind]

...or maybe he needed to hit it to break it loose and because it was so short the handle was the only thing available to hit...

I would say if this was the case, someone was batoning incorrectly. If'n you're gonna do it, and many of us do (myself included), don't do it with a log that has the same diameter as your blade is long. Like any tool, you want to use it within design specs. For instance, I'd definitely baton with my 2 (and feel confident doing so) but I'd never throw it....because sooner or later it'll break, sure as sunrise. It's not designed for the stresses throwing imparts to it. There will always be breakages that aren't attributable to user error, but hitting your knife on the handle, or with another piece of steel, or trying to drive a 6" blade through a 5½" Ø log are all kinda no-no's (at least in my experience). We used to have a saying when I was a mechanic: "if it ain't broke, don't BREAK it!" - i.e. use your head when you're using tools. And if they break, well, sometimes $#!+ happens and you move on. Plus it's a great excuse to have backups....

 

[jimh0220]

The Kabar and the BK2 are never going to be the same. I like my 1942 Kabar, but I'm not going to pound on it brutally. I will pound it a bit, and make it work hard, and it never fails.
My BK10, on the other hand, is a beast that I can clobber, but I think it sucks for fine, detailed work.

Every knife was mad for a purpose. The KABAR was a multi purpose knife. The Beckers and for heavy pounding and harder chores.

BTW: My KABAR batons just fine as well, but I like a hatchet.

 

[james terrio]

Using a wedge as JV3 described is easy, and saves a lot of wear-and-tear on your knife... and a lot of calories, too. Work smarter, not harder :thumbup:

You can baton a 3-inch or 3-foot diameter log lengthwise, down to manageable pieces for your campfire...

... Just don't do it all at once.

It's difficult and frankly silly to baton across a section that's much more than half as wide, as the length of your blade. You'll quickly run out of blade to thump on, and/or get the blade bound up in the workpiece. Then you'll be tempted to force the blade through by pounding on or near the handle, instead of guiding the tip through the wood.... concentrating all that force right on the blade/tang junction itself, instead of using it to push the edge through the wood. When people break knives splitting wood, almost always we find out that's what happened.

To break down a larger piece, simply work around the edges. Think of turning a circle into a stop sign.

[video=youtube;W4yItkfq2Ec]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4yItkfq2Ec&list=UUgX0eLLNYQPF42OvHjmvYbQ[/video]

The same principle applies to batonning across grain to cut a piece to length... if it's too thick or unwieldy to cut straight through, simply work around the circumference making one continuous notch, until it can be broken.

ETA: I've batonned a lot of different knives - from cheap, thin Mora's to good sturdy Beckers and THK's - and I haven't broken one yet. But as a maker I do NOT warranty my knives against damage from batonning, because you just never know when some goof will ignore all advice to the contrary and start wailing on it with a rock or just plain doing it bassackwards. Batonning is easy and efficient to do correctly, but there are also a whole lot of ways to do it wrong...

 

[tradewater]

I do it all the time as well and have never broken a knife. Just make sure your knife reaches through and don't hit the handle. It doesn't hurt to carve out a couple of wedges before you start either, in case you have to rescue your knife.

 

[Bladite]

i'm all for using knives hard but there's a smarter way of going about it too even if the knife is built like a tank. like in this case i didn't even have to carve a wedge, i just grabbed one of the smaller pieces i've already split and use that as a wedge.

pulled out the knife and i completed the split with the wedge.

like with chain saws and other lumber jacking skills, wedges of all kinds used properly, are a great thing.

if nothing else, the wedge opens up the wood a bit more, removing pressure/friction, so the knife can go down more easily.

how many times when splitting or batoning, are you fighting pressure more than the knife is attempting to simple resist because of relatively poor profile?

 

[22-rimfire]

JV3, good post. I don't "beat the snot" out of any knife UNLESS I really don't care what happens to the knife. In which case, if I break it or damage it severely, I would just chaulk it up to experience and life. I would never ask Ethan (or Kabar) to replace a blade unless it broke doing very little work and it's essentially brand new.

 

[Bladite]

if you abuse tools, you get what you deserve

but don't complain about it, is my motto