Is KAI reserving KVT for higher price point knives?

PURPLEDC

PURPLEDC

Joined
Apr 4, 2007
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As the thread title asks is Kai reserving its KVT opening system for higher priced knives or is it merely a situation where a lower cost model simply hasnt been developed yet? The reason I ask is while I used to be a huge A/O fan my interest has now completely shifted to bearing flippers instead of A/Os and autos for several reasons. And I would be lying If I said that I wasnt just a little bit bummed out that the new 0566 and 0770 arent utilizing the KVT system. I dont think I would feel so strongly about this issue if the original versions of the knives they are based on had been A/O themselves. The 05XX being a hinderer design alone I know draws people in but honestly it was the KVT that had me pull out the credit card. I dont really know what it is about bearing flippers but the fact that I can have a knife that is just as fast as an auto or A/O without the blade play or the restrictions really appeals to me. So much that I will buy knives with bearing pivots that I would not even really look at if it did not have it. So it leaves me to wonder why Kai chose their speedsafe for variants of knives that were originally born as KVT knives. Is it that Kai feels KVT is a premium option at this point and is wanting to use it exclusively on knives over a certain price point or is it a manufacturing cost issue where it is actually more expensive for them to make the KVT knives than the A/O's they have so much experience with? Either way I really hope Kershaw plans on a more wallet friendly KVT flipper at some point. My 0560 gets a lot of pocket time, as will my preordered 0801. But there does come a time when my daily tasks dont call for a $200+ knife in my pocket. So instead of a Kershaw out comes the CRKT ripple. Id love for kershaw to give me a reason to leave that knife in the drawer. Or better yet on ebay.
 
I think you've got the cart before the horse - KVT is more expensive to implement, therefore knives featuring it cost more.
 
I think it's not comparable with Speedsafe due to the diameter of the bearing system, and speedsafe models sell really well.
 
While I am not a rep for KAI, it would make sense that the KVT system is saved for the higher end knives since it cost more to put then in and having that system in a knife that costs say $50, then they would have to make other concessions like blade steel and handle material to keep them at the more affordable price points. Also, knives like that aren't marketed to people who would even care. That being said, I would love it on the upcoming Thermite, which I will be buying
 
I think it would add cost to knives that the everyday guy buys. I mean did any of us care what the hell pivot system our first few knives had?

I think it's something you either learn to appreciate, or put the cash up to get. Joe Schmoe doesn't really think about bearings on his work knife, all that matters is that it works, looks decent, and doesn't break.
 
I think there are a lot of knife enthusiasts who has also moved away from A/O to baring flippers (count me among them) but A/O is more tacticool and that's what the majority of the knife buying public wants.
 
I remember being impressed that my first few actually had washers in the pivot system lol.
 
CRKT obviously implements a bearing system that isn't too costly. On the other hand, those aren't captured bearings. (If you take the Ripple apart, be careful what direction you breathe.) Going just by the feel I'd say that the bearing system that Spyderco uses is as good, if not better than, KVT. I think Spyderco has the same marketing plan, though, saving it for their higher end knives. The cost can't be all that much since they both plan to replace bearings that wear out for free (which would probably add to the cost if they did that with the lower end knives). The XMs are still much more in demand than bearing flippers, so go figure. I think the 0566 should be fine de-assisted, but I wonder what their marketing research shows? The preference on this forum is clearly for unassisted, but that may not be Joe Public's preference at all. (And if it is, there's a big niche for someone like CRKT to fill.)

Update: In the end this will be short term. Within a few years virtually all folding knives in the $30-$200 range will use captured bearings.
 
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freewheeling I think the cost comes in the CNC, possibly flat grinding, finishing and tolerances needed for the KVT system. Imagine adding that additional time to a $50 knife.

What spyderco and kershaw use is the same thing. I compared the bearings on both knives when I bought the Southard, they looked identical albeit I didn't try to swap them. My ZT 561 was a little slicker than the Southard I bought but if you read around you'll see variation, some say their Southards are smoothers, others say the ZT. I would say the pivot systems are the same.
 
jhyde7585 said:
I think it would add cost to knives that the everyday guy buys. I mean did any of us care what the hell pivot system our first few knives had?
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I still don't care what pivot system is in there, as long as it opens smoothly and doesn't compromise lockup. My ZT 0550 uses bronze washers and is still amazingly smooth. Even my Zing, which uses teflon washers, flies open like an A/O. To be fair, though, I have never handled a KVT knife.
 
KVT shouldn't add that much cost to a knife. If anything, I think the captive bearing system would be cheaper to incorporate than one with free bearings. It's a desirable feature for sure and makes deployment of the blade a pleasure, although I'm not sure how the bearing system will hold up under hard use compared to PB or Nylatron washers.
 
Luis G. said:
freewheeling I think the cost comes in the CNC, possibly flat grinding, finishing and tolerances needed for the KVT system. Imagine adding that additional time to a $50 knife.

What spyderco and kershaw use is the same thing. I compared the bearings on both knives when I bought the Southard, they looked identical albeit I didn't try to swap them. My ZT 561 was a little slicker than the Southard I bought but if you read around you'll see variation, some say their Southards are smoothers, others say the ZT. I would say the pivot systems are the same.
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actually I cant remember which it was but one of these knives has more bearings than the other. The two knives also feature different size washers and bearings. I dont think they are compatable. The 0560 washers are also thicker and blue. As far as how they work and smoothness they seem to be identical. I think they just both need to be used a certain amount of time to get to a certain slickness.

Burke said:
I think you've got the cart before the horse - KVT is more expensive to implement, therefore knives featuring it cost more.
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How is it that you have come to the conclusion that KVT is more expensive to implement? I have not seen any documentation to support that routing for a thrust bearing is any more expesive than routing a handle for a torsion bar. And Even if we are talking about KVT being more expensive to make its not going to be by much. When other companies can make similar systems for $150 knives and other companies can make even more complicated systems (aluminum ripple) at $30 I have to question manufacturing cost as the sole motivating factor. That combined with the fact that the new rexford model has KVT, and full titanium slab handles and a elmax blade for $240 msrp and a $190 street price there has to be some wiggle room and factors we arent looking at.


jhyde7585 said:
I think it would add cost to knives that the everyday guy buys. I mean did any of us care what the hell pivot system our first few knives had?

I think it's something you either learn to appreciate, or put the cash up to get. Joe Schmoe doesn't really think about bearings on his work knife, all that matters is that it works, looks decent, and doesn't break.
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The majority of knives discussed on this forum are not for jo schmoe. Joe schmoe not only doesnt care about bearings. He probably also doesnt care if his knife says benchmade, schrade or smith and wesson. As far as what we cared about on the first few knives we had I would have cared if the option had become available. Bottom line though is that im a knife enthusiast. As are most of the people who would frequent a knife forum. And I would have to think that is us that most knives with these types of options and features are aimed at. Just like A/O when it came out there will always be those who desire something yet cant afford a premium. I guess it will be CRKT for them.
 
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PURPLEDC said:
actually I cant remember which it was but one of these knives has more bearings than the other. The two knives also feature different size washers and bearings. I dont think they are compatable. The 0560 washers are also thicker and blue. As far as how they work and smoothness they seem to be identical. I think they just both need to be used a certain amount of time to get to a certain slickness.
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Good point, didn't take a great look but when i did I thought they were identical in thickness and balls.

Apparently the Southard has an extra ball bearing from what I can see.

Ill measure bearings when my 2nd Southard comes in today.
 
one of the smoothest knives i have ever flipped had no bearings at all and that was my friends well used jyd2 it is smoother than my broke-in 560 and a like new 561 both riding on clean lubed bearings
 
Luis G. said:
Good point, didn't take a great look but when i did I thought they were identical in thickness and balls.

Apparently the Southard has an extra ball bearing from what I can see.

Ill measure bearings when my 2nd Southard comes in today.
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Definitely way different. Just measured.
 
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