Is steel a difference?

[jbib]

It appears that generally speaking under normal circumstances that the price point of "chinese" knives have a lower price point than their "USA" competitors (knives with very similar features). I clearly understand labor cost is a factor but excluding predatory dumping can it be said "USA" steel tends to be of higher quality?

 

[Blues]

Larrin

 

[jbib]

Larrin

If this is a

Larrin

Have I said anything inappropriate?

 

[Blues]

If you want an answer to your question, I think a metallurgist who created MagnaCut and is familiar with all manner of carbon, tool and stainless steels is a pretty good source...

...as opposed to opinions not necessarily based upon facts and testing.

So, you be the judge.

 

[Ilikesharpstuff]

If this is a

Have I said anything inappropriate?

Larrin is a PhD metallurgist and the inventor of Magnacut. There are probably few, if any people browsing around here more qualified to answer questions about steel quality.

Name brand steels...things from CPM, Bohler, Carpenter, etc., are formulated and made by those companies. If a steel is truly CPM S90V, it's the same no matter who manufactured the knife. Differences can occur in the heat treat or other processes that determine the overall performance, but the alloy is the same. I think the problem lies in a steel being marked as one alloy but actually having a different formulation. Testing exists that can determine this, but it is pricey and not generally something that the average consumer would just send out their knife to have it tested. Unfortunately, shady things happen sometimes. This thread is a good read. Specifically this post.

 

[scorpnsnake]

If this is a

Have I said anything inappropriate?

That's just Blues pinging or inviting Larrin, the LeBron James of metallurgy, to this conversation. Got to love this place.

 

[greater]

I am no metallurgist and I can tell you the answer is yes but finding out what steel is is optimized for what you need apart from finding a manufacturer that prioritizes coaxing the best qualities out of he steel (heat treat, blade geometry, proper overall design of the knife etc....) requires sorting through miles of marketing,and advertising crap about the latest do everything super steel you "need to have" making finding the real facts akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

The best approach is to start with what your intended use is.

 

[ferider]

A lot of Chinese knives now use US or European steels (M390, etc.). Others claim they do and don't, but that's another story. My point being it's not clear cut at all.

 

[Danke42]

I think an economist would have a better angle on "why stuff costs more".

 

[greater]

Hmmm I have my mental image of levels of fraud in the knife industry.

1) First place is out and out fraud claiming the steel is something it's not.

2) Using the steel but not spending the money to properly process it to exploit it's abilities for example using a butter soft super steel that is not brought up to the proper hardness level so they can advertise their knife as having the latest super steel even though a much cheaper less popular steel that is properly processed will outperform it.

3) Marketing the latest super steel on a knife design that is totally inappropriate for the steel. This marketing strategy aims at the ignorant and must be successful because it is done a lot. This can become dangerous if for example a more brittle high edge retention steel is used on a big long chopper or sword.

Some of the so called lowest end less popular steels that are inexpensive, easy to work, and treat are excellent when used in a knife design that benefits from it's properties. I generally don't see these positive things being explained and marketed in the knife industry.

It seems to me that knife manufacturers would much prefer to keep their customers ignorant, in the dark to common known facts that any amateur metallurgist would know.

Too bad.

 

[greater]

I think an economist would have a better angle on "why stuff costs more".

Try grinding a blade out of 3V and you will get a hint.

At least from what I saw on a youtube video made by a knife maker. He says he likes the steel but will not make anymore 3V blades due to very stringent heat treat protocols, extreme wear on his equipment and the time consumed.

 

[Larrin]

The quality of American, Japanese, and European steel is more respected than Chinese steel. There have been some cases of Chinese-made steel being advertised under the brand name of a steel that is made somewhere else. But many Chinese companies do indeed source steel from Japan, Europe, and the USA. If you compare knives with the same blade steel manufactured in different areas you can get an idea of the effect of labor cost, overhead, etc. vs only the steel.

Steel itself, especially in a folder, can be quite cheap (a few dollars per knife even with high end steels). With $50 and cheaper knives that can be a significant percentage of cost but in higher end knives it isn’t a major factor, The cost comes from the greater difficulty in processing those steels.

The quality and cost of the rest of the knife also impacts the price in ways the average knife buyer doesn’t always understand. For example an American made Hogue with titanium milled handle is over $300 while their polymer handle knives are less than half the price. So companies often make their fancier models in higher end steels and the customer erroneously believes it is the steel leading to the higher cost.

For an extreme example, if you use a steel with low carbide content like a 420 series steel you can “fine blank” the steel parts and then grinding and finishing is also extremely easy. The steel is cheap and then processing it is also as inexpensive as possible, With a high wear resistance steel the company would need to laser or waterjet cut (more expensive) and then they would find the grinding to be much more finicky. Polishing sometimes requires different methods altogether.

 

[Locutus D'Borg]

Some Chinese companies (Reate, We) use and maximize the metallurgical characteristics of certain steels via heat treat and edge geometry. Other companies may be less consistent or diligent. I defer to Larrin on details.

 

[Blues]

Thank you, Larrin

 

[jbib]

The quality of American, Japanese, and European steel is more respected than Chinese steel. There have been some cases of Chinese-made steel being advertised under the brand name of a steel that is made somewhere else. But many Chinese companies do indeed source steel from Japan, Europe, and the USA. If you compare knives with the same blade steel manufactured in different areas you can get an idea of the effect of labor cost, overhead, etc. vs only the steel.

Steel itself, especially in a folder, can be quite cheap (a few dollars per knife even with high end steels). With $50 and cheaper knives that can be a significant percentage of cost but in higher end knives it isn’t a major factor, The cost comes from the greater difficulty in processing those steels.

The quality and cost of the rest of the knife also impacts the price in ways the average knife buyer doesn’t always understand. For example an American made Hogue with titanium milled handle is over $300 while their polymer handle knives are less than half the price. So companies often make their fancier models in higher end steels and the customer erroneously believes it is the steel leading to the higher cost.

For an extreme example, if you use a steel with low carbide content like a 420 series steel you can “fine blank” the steel parts and then grinding and finishing is also extremely easy. The steel is cheap and then processing it is also as inexpensive as possible, With a high wear resistance steel the company would need to laser or waterjet cut (more expensive) and then they would find the grinding to be much more finicky. Polishing sometimes requires different methods altogether.

Thank you!

 

[Sam Wilson]

I have had manufacturers in Pakistan/China/India and other places contact me to offer to sell me their products or to make mine. In regards to steel offerings, more than once I have been told "We can put whatever steel name you want on the blade."

Do what you want with that info.

Sam⚔⚔

 

[scorpnsnake]

I have had manufacturers in Pakistan/China/India and other places contact me to offer to sell me their products or to make mine. In regards to steel offerings, more than once I have been told "We can put whatever steel name you want on the blade."

Do what you want with that info.

Sam⚔⚔

Obviously "surgical steel" would be the best choice.

 

[David Mary]

"We can put whatever steel name you want on the blade."

"We're unscrupulous, and blatantly admitting it, would you like to work with us?"

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

Less about the steel for me and more about trusting the heat treat... then again there are a lot of companies that run their steel soft which are not located in china.

 

[Danke42]

Try grinding a blade out of 3V and you will get a hint.

At least from what I saw on a youtube video made by a knife maker. He says he likes the steel but will not make anymore 3V blades due to very stringent heat treat protocols, extreme wear on his equipment and the time consumed.

Was that guy's name Guy?