Is the CRK&T Bear Claw a rip-off of Emerson's La Griffe?

shootist16

shootist16

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OK, Is the bear claw a rip-off of Emerson's La Griffe or not? Or is it a production version of Russ Kommer's "the claw? Or is it a rip-off of Russ Kommer's "the claw"? While we are at it is Russ Kommer's "the claw" a rip-off of Fred Perrin's design of which Emerson's La Griffe is a production version of? I don't think it is ethical to rip off other designs and I don't want to support companies that do. However, I don't want to rush to judgement. At what point is a design not a rip-off? I know that there are only so many variations one can do on a knfe and it is probably almost impossible to design one that is at least not similar to something that has been done before. However all of these knives look alot alkike, leading me to believe that someone is ripping off somebodies design. If these knives are knock-offs which company/person designed it first? I thought, and hoped, that CRK&T was above that. They have turned out some decent stuff for the money.

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-Dennis


 
Interestingly enough, I posted these same sentiments on rec.knives about a week or two ago after I first became aware of this knife and I saw an ad for it from an online vendor.

Strange that there were no replies to my remarks that the knife looked remarkably similar to Fred Perrins "Griffe" and that there was no attribution.

I further remarked that everyone seems to want to copy Fred's designs these days and subsequently contacted my friends Nemo and Fred in Paris.

The one thing I do know is that Ernest Emerson is (properly) paying royalties to Fred on his version of the Griffe.

And so it goes......


Blues


------------------
Live Free or Die

 
Hello,

IMHO it's only copycats but Emerson's.

It's so easy to copy european designs...
That's sad.

Fred got new designs of a wonderful combat knife he doesn't want to show because of that copycat policie.
Sad again.

Cheers,

JM
 
It's my understanding that Kommer made a deal with crkt.

I haven't heard anything about royalties to Fred.

------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
 
Here are pics of both.
crkt-2500_sm.jpg

www.abc-direct.com/crkt/images/crkt-2500.jpg
The above is a link to a larger pic.
LaGriffe.jpg


Have fun...

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com



[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 10 October 1999).]
 
Here is my message to the knife comapny's who seem to do nothing but copy everyone elses' designs. Get off your ass's get out your wallet and design something for your own d*** self or hire someone who can! This is really getting old!


I feel so much better now.
smile.gif


Regards,

Tom Carey

[This message has been edited by Tom Carey (edited 10 October 1999).]
 
Agreed 100% Tom!

This may inspire some debate, but IMO design is the easy part - you only have to do it once and then you make as many as you like. I'm sure every maker on this board has 100 designs on paper for every one they put in steel. Doesn't mean they're all winners, but it does mean that enough of them are that copying should never be a problem.

When is it copying and when is it borrowing an idea? If you have to ask, it's copying
wink.gif
If still in doubt, give credit for the inspiration! I admit that isn't an option for production companies, who make profits a maker's name and thus must provide compensation for using it.

This is sick, though. There are too many good designs out there that something like this should ever happen. Just when CRK&T was starting to get their act together...

-Drew
 
Well, if that's not a knockoff then I don't know what is.
The only thing to do is not to buy the damn thing.
Why would you want to anyway?
The Emerson La Griffe is only $10.00 more and you get 154CM rather than the inferior 6M steel found in the "Bear Claw".
That in itself makes me want the Emerson, the icing on the cake is that Fred Perrin is getting the due that's owed to him from the honorable Emerson Knife Co.
Let me just go on record, right here and right now, and say that I WILL NOT BUY ANY PRODUCT FROM ANY COMPANY THAT DOES UNAUTHORIZED KNOCKOFFS OF HONEST KNIFEMAKERS.
This stuff really torques my nuts!

Sorry about shouting... please excuse...

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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.


 
Although I feel no particular affliction to either of the designs, I must insist that we rush to no fool-hardy conclusions, without having all of the facts.

Maybe a deal was worked out between CRKT and the designer? Maybe the designer gets a commission? Maybe CRKT didn't copy the design, their design just happens to look like it?

Many questions, few answers. Let's just try to keep this discussion civilized
smile.gif
.

------------------
Yes! Drop the burrito...

 
The CRK&T Bear Claw is a licensed reproduction of Russ Kommer's design. They even stamped his name on the handle.

------------------
Frank Ruff
Ruff's Saddle Shop and Knife Sales
Umatilla FL

[This message has been edited by Frank Ruff (edited 11 October 1999).]
 
Hmmm... then I think Mr. Kommers and Mr. Perrin should have words. Which probably isn't our business, so let's drop it...

-Drew
 
Hmmm...

Good idea.

But, my statement above about not buying from companies that rip off knifemaker's designs without paying the dues still stands.
Not pertinent here, perhaps, but in general.

-----------------------
Best Regards from your shootin'-from-the-hip pal,
Mike

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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.




[This message has been edited by misque (edited 11 October 1999).]
 
No need to get tied up in knots. The Bear Claw is advertised as a Russ Kommer design and that means CRKT is paying royalties to Russ Kommer. As you know, they pay royalties to several custom knife makers who have provided designs for them. This is nothing new for them.

Is the Bear Claw a copy of the LaGriffe? I don't know, it's a neck knife with a short hawkbill type blade and a finger hole. It has scales for one thing while the LaGriffe does not and a different (better) way of snapping into the sheath than the LaGriffe. All knives have blades and handles. It's pretty hard to design a new knife without that design suggesting a previous design from someone else. If you think the designs are too close for comfort, then buy the LaGriffe.

Don't get into a snit at CRKT, though, they didn't design or copy anything in this case. It's a collaboration. Take care.

------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com

 
I think I remember seeing little claw knives with finger-rings at knife shows several years ago, but I can't prove it. I think the concept may be older than either the Kommer or Perin models. Do any "old hands" remember?

I know from other discussions that CRKT themselves have been annoyed by other outfits coming too close to their designs.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Knife Outlet - the bear claw may have scales and the emerson version not, but the emerson version is only one of the many version of the "griffe". Perrin's original "La Griffes" had either no scales, micarta, g10, wood or stag. I have a micarta version long "La Griffe" which has a long (3 1/2") chisel grind, wharncliffe style blade. I've seen the hooked (curved) versions as well as the the various slab sides and various blade shapes and lengths.

As for which came first I don't know.

------------------
~ JerryO ~
 
IMHO, Fred Perrin did show is first La Griffe in 1989 when Russ Kommer did show his Bear Claw in 1995.

Six years of difference !!!
And don't tell me CRKT didn't new it.

We have try many time to contact Russ Kommer.
Arizon Custom knives did'nt want to provide us his address as
"it's not a good idea" SIC
As we could be not civilized people !
wink.gif


Also we have contact CRKT many times without any respond from them.

Who feel guilty in that story ?

IMHO we don't mind if Russ kommer made his own design or copy another knifemaker.
We were just interested to know how did he came to that idea and share other ideas with mr Kommer.
Imagine just a moment: Russ Kommer got that idea from his own experiences in the wild wild Alaska! It would be a excellent time to chat with that man, to understand his creating process.

Now, the fleeing reaction is not a real diplomatic reaction.
We feel, something is not clear and someone feels guilty for stealing ideas from Europe...
Sad.

Cheers,

JM
 
I can't speak to the question of who made what when, but I wold like to point out that CRKT has attributed the source of their designs from the inception of the company. They have continued to develop business relationships with makers who are well respected, and who are very honourable. In essence I consider there to plenty of evidence that CRKT has behave honourably in the past and that they will continue to behave honourably in the future.

Take care,

Mike

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TANSTAAFL


 
I think Corduroy summed it up nicely when he said Mr. Kommer and Mr. Perrin should have words and maybe we should just drop it.

------------------
The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.


 
I prefer the Bear claw to LaGriffe due to:
Superior handle/grip.
Superior sheath.
Superior Price.
Longer blade.
When it comes down to it, CRKT, Perrin, Kommer, Emerson, et al... all copied God! The claw design has been around for quite sometime, no?

-Redleg out.

------------------
"Blessed is the Lord my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle..." excerpted from Psalms 144.
 
People should do some homework before making accusations. Look back through 20 years of "Knives" annuals and lots of other publications that predate Mr. Perrin's offering. I think you'll see many other examples of "claw" knives of all sorts. Did Mr Perrin copy them?
wink.gif

Probably not, so let's not be so hasty in the "this is the only one ever and I invented it" vein, eh? Are we going to yell at every knifemaker that sells a drop point hunter as "ripping off" Bob Loveless?
Jeez.

------------------
Buck Collectors Club Member
Knifeknut(just ask my wife)
Cetan Blood Brother
Military & Moran Admiration Society

[This message has been edited by Brian Lavin (edited 01-15-2000).]
 
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