-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Is there a place for the sword in a modern army?
- Thread starter scotjute
- Start date
not2sharp
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 1999
- Messages
- 20,566
A handgun?
Swords have no place on the modern battlefield. The extra weight would better used for ammunition and other high tech equipment. If you find yourself that close to the enemy, and someone hasn't surrendered yet, then something has gone very, very, wrong.
n2s
Swords have no place on the modern battlefield. The extra weight would better used for ammunition and other high tech equipment. If you find yourself that close to the enemy, and someone hasn't surrendered yet, then something has gone very, very, wrong.
n2s
- Joined
- Aug 24, 1999
- Messages
- 933
I'm not so sure, N2S. Today's battlefield landscape is rapidly evolving more into an urbanized setting, where engagement distances can vary anywhere from several blocks' length to coming around a corner inside a building and being, quite literally, face-to-face.
In such possibly cramped environs, a sword of moderate length (say, something along the lines of a wakizashi) might prove invaluable in providing an advantage. At hallway distances, or in ambush settings, swords might allow even a semi-skilled user the advantage of immediacy of attack and retention of silence protocols, while keeping an opponent at 'arm's length'. Certainly, suppressed firearms can also provide a modicum of this potential, but in the worst-case scenario, a sword provides more damage capability for an approximately similar weight. Swords cannot jam, misfire, or run empty. And even a broken sword still cuts, in many cases.
So, I think it would be hasty to arbitrarily dismiss the usefulness of a long blade on today's battlefield.
In such possibly cramped environs, a sword of moderate length (say, something along the lines of a wakizashi) might prove invaluable in providing an advantage. At hallway distances, or in ambush settings, swords might allow even a semi-skilled user the advantage of immediacy of attack and retention of silence protocols, while keeping an opponent at 'arm's length'. Certainly, suppressed firearms can also provide a modicum of this potential, but in the worst-case scenario, a sword provides more damage capability for an approximately similar weight. Swords cannot jam, misfire, or run empty. And even a broken sword still cuts, in many cases.
So, I think it would be hasty to arbitrarily dismiss the usefulness of a long blade on today's battlefield.
Triton
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2000
- Messages
- 36,062
It seems like in a face to face urban situation like you describe the bayonet on the end of the rifle that was mentioned before would be just as effective as the sword and does not require the specialized training that the sword would. At a guess I would say our military has probably already thought this through and if they are not carrying swords there is probably a pretty good reason for it.
If we allow ourselves to think "out of the box" on this subject -
A number of other societies and cultures continue to field long knives / swords on the battlefield. And U.S. forces have had to contend with facing such weaponry as a physical threat (Haiti, Africa, Afghanistan, Somalia, Columbia, El Salvador, for example).
SF operators routinely work in areas where edged weapons of this type are available and used, some as everyday instruments (machetes), and others as weapons (sole purpose).
In El Salvador both government and guerrilla forces routinely carried and would use short combat machetes.
Current CQB programs for our own armed forces, as well as foreign forces of an elite nature, train in the use of shovels, machetes, knives, and other "cold" weapons...to include in the appropriate culture - swords.
I learned of at least one recon Marine during the gulf war who carried a Hartsfield "Waki" in a over the shoulder/back scabbard. Once in country and under fire it's darned amazing what "special" personally owned weapons come out of the seabags and rucksacks!
Personally I like the tomahawk (LaGana)for a personal cold weapon in the military environment. In Kosovo, Albanian guerrillas commonly carry a traditional Albanian hatchet as part of their combat equipment. Have one. Wouldn't want to get whacked with it
A solid, simple, well built short sword in a kydex scabbard with shoulder carry system remains a great weapon IF you know how to use it well enough to get the job done.
I believe the Mineral Mountain (?) guys make such a sword, as do some other working cutlery folks.
And there's a lot to be said for a $5 machete with a keen edge...
A number of other societies and cultures continue to field long knives / swords on the battlefield. And U.S. forces have had to contend with facing such weaponry as a physical threat (Haiti, Africa, Afghanistan, Somalia, Columbia, El Salvador, for example).
SF operators routinely work in areas where edged weapons of this type are available and used, some as everyday instruments (machetes), and others as weapons (sole purpose).
In El Salvador both government and guerrilla forces routinely carried and would use short combat machetes.
Current CQB programs for our own armed forces, as well as foreign forces of an elite nature, train in the use of shovels, machetes, knives, and other "cold" weapons...to include in the appropriate culture - swords.
I learned of at least one recon Marine during the gulf war who carried a Hartsfield "Waki" in a over the shoulder/back scabbard. Once in country and under fire it's darned amazing what "special" personally owned weapons come out of the seabags and rucksacks!
Personally I like the tomahawk (LaGana)for a personal cold weapon in the military environment. In Kosovo, Albanian guerrillas commonly carry a traditional Albanian hatchet as part of their combat equipment. Have one. Wouldn't want to get whacked with it
A solid, simple, well built short sword in a kydex scabbard with shoulder carry system remains a great weapon IF you know how to use it well enough to get the job done.
I believe the Mineral Mountain (?) guys make such a sword, as do some other working cutlery folks.
And there's a lot to be said for a $5 machete with a keen edge...
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2001
- Messages
- 151
A few min. with a file on a E-tool can make for quite a weapon with either the spade portion folded like a pick or all the way out as a large blade. Not as sexy or refined as a large bowie or short sword but in close quarters just as effective if not more so. This along with very little need for training for most Americans who have played baseball. Just treat it like a bladed ballbat and just start swinging.
The US Army's Unarmed Combat Manual covers the use of the E-tool as a weapon.(It doesn't mention anything about using it as a ballbat-thats my jist on the subject)
I tend to favor med-large bladed objects.
There was one guy in my unit in the Gulf War that straped a medium sized samuri style sword to the outside of his ruck.
Most guys already have way to much crap straped,tied,velcroed, and hung from their bodies to even think about draping a sword from somewhere else, so a large knife or machete will do.
Sierrea912, I agree, I've seen the end result of those Kosovo hand axes and have one myself and I wouldn't stand in line for a whack from one. It even made me re-think about bringing a good tomahawk to the next one for myself.
The US Army's Unarmed Combat Manual covers the use of the E-tool as a weapon.(It doesn't mention anything about using it as a ballbat-thats my jist on the subject)
I tend to favor med-large bladed objects.
There was one guy in my unit in the Gulf War that straped a medium sized samuri style sword to the outside of his ruck.
Most guys already have way to much crap straped,tied,velcroed, and hung from their bodies to even think about draping a sword from somewhere else, so a large knife or machete will do.
Sierrea912, I agree, I've seen the end result of those Kosovo hand axes and have one myself and I wouldn't stand in line for a whack from one. It even made me re-think about bringing a good tomahawk to the next one for myself.
i agree completly with sierra im a student in latosa escrima stick fight ting and this sumer im joinin the ariborn rangers and applying for speacial forces i belive a short sword of a wakazashi size is in valuable to a person that noes how to use it . a person metioned the need for gadgets instead of the weight of the blade well gadgets do malfunction often in times when it is least appreciated. now ill admitt that at least some training should be req by our military but would they listen nah so i sugg. if u wana train for a short sword combat try escrim or a japanese art but i have found since escrima is based on fighting with machetes and short sword that it is very effective i know that when i go in country when ever that will be i will be takin my custom wakazashi with me it wont jam, run outa ammo, and i wont miss. its just me but there is somthing very comforting about a short sword strapped to your rucksack in the middle of the night when your are alone 
but lets not deny the welcomed feeling of a usp 45. on your hip they both feel good trust me. but i think sierra and my self have the right idea not that the others dont i agrre with fallschrimjager in that in countless cases e tools have been used to dispatch the enemy with excelnt results cold steel offers such a shovel with a coarse edge already there and they are balanced for thowing. in reality a batlefield pick up can bring anything out that you can think of i've heard of a 50 cal tripod beings used to smash a n. korean soilders head into peices thanks for your time not bad for a 17 year old huh.
but lets not deny the welcomed feeling of a usp 45. on your hip they both feel good trust me. but i think sierra and my self have the right idea not that the others dont i agrre with fallschrimjager in that in countless cases e tools have been used to dispatch the enemy with excelnt results cold steel offers such a shovel with a coarse edge already there and they are balanced for thowing. in reality a batlefield pick up can bring anything out that you can think of i've heard of a 50 cal tripod beings used to smash a n. korean soilders head into peices thanks for your time not bad for a 17 year old huh.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 1999
- Messages
- 2,959
I'll ditto Fallschrimjager. The old style wooden handled E-tool is an awesome CQB weapon. The newer fold up "Vietnam Style" monstrosity isn't nearly as good, either as a weapon or a digging tool.
As far as swords go;
I think the ideal answer would be to allow the troops to carry whatever extra weapons they want. There's little enough time in the modern "Training Schedule" as it is, the addition of sword training wouldn't be worth the time taken away from other pursuits, but if an individual wants to take the time to learn a weapon and carry it, it can't hurt.
As far as issue equipment goes, what I'd like to see is a better designed machete. One built with the thought in mind that it could come into play as a weapon as well as a tool. This would save weight and allow the soldier to practice/learn at his leisure if he so chose.
However, the sad truth is, that for most forces, personal weapons are almost totally excluded. The Military doesn't trust it's troops with things that go bang or have sharp points.
True, it's not so bad for the Spec Ops boys, but take a moment to consider that a Marine isn't even allowed to keep his personal Ka-Bar in the barracks anymore and you begin to see how restrictive things are getting. The odds of deploying with a sword are pretty slim.
Of course, once the shooting starts, all that bs is out the window.
As far as swords go;
I think the ideal answer would be to allow the troops to carry whatever extra weapons they want. There's little enough time in the modern "Training Schedule" as it is, the addition of sword training wouldn't be worth the time taken away from other pursuits, but if an individual wants to take the time to learn a weapon and carry it, it can't hurt.
As far as issue equipment goes, what I'd like to see is a better designed machete. One built with the thought in mind that it could come into play as a weapon as well as a tool. This would save weight and allow the soldier to practice/learn at his leisure if he so chose.
However, the sad truth is, that for most forces, personal weapons are almost totally excluded. The Military doesn't trust it's troops with things that go bang or have sharp points.
True, it's not so bad for the Spec Ops boys, but take a moment to consider that a Marine isn't even allowed to keep his personal Ka-Bar in the barracks anymore and you begin to see how restrictive things are getting. The odds of deploying with a sword are pretty slim.
Of course, once the shooting starts, all that bs is out the window.
I believe it was SF Colonel Mize (sp) who won the Congressional Medal of Honor in Korea for an action where he concluded the fight with multiple armed N. Korean or Chinese forces by swinging a sharpened E-tool like he was reaping wheat in Kansas.
Work a stick (Kali / Escrima) and you can work a sword fair enough well to get the job done (or a machete!).
I agree with Ken. But that's why sea and duffle bags were made long, yes
We did sword evals in Fighting Knives for a bit.
They are very, very good weapons even today.
And I think Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works offers a high quality, reasonably priced short sword with Kydex sheath. Does anyone know this for sure
Work a stick (Kali / Escrima) and you can work a sword fair enough well to get the job done (or a machete!).
I agree with Ken. But that's why sea and duffle bags were made long, yes
We did sword evals in Fighting Knives for a bit.
They are very, very good weapons even today.
And I think Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works offers a high quality, reasonably priced short sword with Kydex sheath. Does anyone know this for sure
Reading this it occured to me that some sort of smallish chainsaw would make a good modern version of the sabre. It might be very useful for lots of battlefield activities, especially in urban environments. Cuttng down doors, cutting down walls, building barricades. Also lots of poetntial for rescue from rubble and such. I find it hard to imagine a more effective CQB device than a chainsaw, minus the guard. Just the psychological effect of a group of chainsaw-wielding soldiers would be huge.
Actually making one that would be light and reliable enough for military duty would be a bit of a problem, and I imagine lack of fuel could be problematic as well. However, I think the technical challenges could be overcome for a price. For most applications it would probably be possible to just buy them off the shelf, paint them OD, and start issuing them.
Actually making one that would be light and reliable enough for military duty would be a bit of a problem, and I imagine lack of fuel could be problematic as well. However, I think the technical challenges could be overcome for a price. For most applications it would probably be possible to just buy them off the shelf, paint them OD, and start issuing them.