is there a problem that needs to be addressed?

Joined
Apr 21, 1999
Messages
739
After reading Cliff Stamps post about hype,It seens that there may be more here than meets the eye.


Is there a real problem out there with reguard to customers perceptions of knifemakers ? And if so what is the cause of this animosity?

Has your past experiences with custom knife purchases been negative ?


I was a knife collector long befor I became a maker and my experiences have ALL been positive. Never has a knifemaker screwed me over or been less than professional.
Maybe I've been lucky maybe People just need a reason to whine. Which is it ?

As a knifemaker I realise that sometimes your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

What are your biggest complaints ?
What has been your experience ?

About Knifemakers?

About Customers ?

My intent is to identify a problem if one exists and find a solution . Or recognise that you just can't make everyone happy as theres alwayse those that choose to dwell on negativety.Please lets keep this friendly !

Aloha!!! Ken Onion
 
Ken,

I don't know if some of the other folks have had any problems with custom makers, but my experiences have all been extremely positive.

To date I have ordered and received custom knives from the following makers:
  • Rob Simonich
  • Trace Rinaldi
  • Bob Dozier
  • John Greco
  • Lynn Griffith

ALL of these folks gave me exceptional cusomter service... enough so that I would gladly recommend them to any and all folks looking to have a knife custom made to their specifications. Each of these makers left me feeling very positively about the experience, and I learned something new about knives & materials & the knife making process from each of them. None of them "sold" or "hyped" me on anything in particular... we discussed my needs and desires, and they helped make some recommendations to go along with my original specs.

I couldn't ask for more from a custom maker! I hope over time to add more custom makers and their knives to my list. Bladeforums has been an awesome source of information for me to learn about steels, materials, shapes, and makers.

I don't know if this rambling responses helps at all, but it certainly represents my experience. Folks are certainly free to email to findout more about my experiences with any other the listed makers.

AJ
 
Ken--

Thanks for the thread. As a customer, performance is of paramount concern to me, and most of my knife purchases are in anticipation of getting a knife that performs better in the following order of priority:
1. Cuts more aggressively;
2. Holds an edge longer;
3. Exhibits good toughness, while achieving the above;
4. Is light and well balanced in the hand; and
5. Is low maintenance and durable in all respects.
As buying the best can get rather expensive, I also appreciate good fit and finish and a pleasing design, and I’ve been known to splurge a little on handle material and some decoration from time to time.

I currently own custom knives by (or have orders placed with): Ross Aki, Jens Anso, David Boye, Jerry Busse (custom and production), Kit Carson, Keith Coleman, Rick Dunkerley, Clyde Fischer, Ron Gaston, Phill Hartsfield, Ed Schott, Steve Schwarzer, PJ Tomes, and Phil Wilson, among others. I have multiple knives from many of these. I have intentionally listed them alphabetically to eliminate any suggestion of ranking them, because my respect for all of these gentlemen is enormous. Fit, finish, design, materials and customer service have been, without exception, a joy.

Two caveats:

1.) Some of these knives cut much better than others (again--my first priority), and
2.) I have bought knives, from some of these makers (more than one), that have been undeservedly “hyped” in the blade press, in my opinion, and that hype has affected some purchases I would not have made, had I known the whole truth.

The first instance is understandable and expected--not every knife can be the best. However, expanding on the second point, I have been referred by more than one maker listed above, to material published in the blade press, that either turned out to be extremely dubious if not outright misrepresentation, or was simply not the whole truth in terms of giving what I would consider to be a full account of a blade’s properties--even when the whole picture certainly should have been obvious to the maker. In no case did a maker promise his knives would do anything specific that might have been suggested by the review, but I felt these makers were certainly less than clear about how those reviews might have overstated performance. The end result is that I have spent something in excess of $2,000 on knives, which I would not have bought, if I’d known what I know now about their performance from my own testing.

I do understand that, as a maker, a good review is a hard thing not to use as a sales tool, and I understand that sometimes it’s hard to be objective about performance. It may be that none of the makers from whom I’ve bought would feel they did anything wrong. I’ve not asked for my money back on any of these knives, and certainly would not say I was cheated in any way. In the long run, I look at it as part of my education.

So is there a problem, in my opinion? Probably not a big one, and whatever problem is there can be easily mitigated by a little more vigilance on all fronts. But I do think this is something that shouldn’t be taken lightly.

I would like to add that these experiences certainly have left me feeling that absolutely unbiased, controlled testing is absolutely essential to the understanding all of us have, about knives and their properties—makers and customers alike. And it’s just that kind of objectivity, technical proficiency, and integrity that make reliable reviewers few and far between—and often maligned to boot, sad to say. In the same way that I’ve spent more than $2000 on knives I would not have bought except for hype, I’d venture to say that the reviews published by Cliff Stamp alone have saved me at least that amount and more—probably much more in the long run.

If anything, such experience has given me a real appreciation for anyone who devotes himself to reviewing knives fairly and openly, without motive for profit or self-promotion, and who offers that information freely to our community for the edification of all.

--Will
 
some knife collector...you never bought a knife from me
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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
I've never had a bad experience with a custom maker. I had one maker that gave me odd and conficting answers to my questions so I stopped the order before I started. Another who has yet to deliver a knife promised a year ago, but no money has changed hands (at his request, and I did offer. If I had a hefty deposit on it I'd have reason to gripe). Another maker expected to complete my order in 3 months and took 8 months but he dressed it up and made it fancier and nicer than we originally agreed on, apologized and didn't charge any extra. I can honestly say I would buy another knife from him.
So NO, I haven't had what I call a bad experience. I have had many good experiences and made some good friends. Generally, the level of service and trust in the custom knife community is above anything else I've encountered.
 

Interesting topic. I don't think theres a perception problem that exceeds any other type of passionate craft/product type industry (quilt making for instance). I've had good experiences and some fairly rotten experiences but so far the good have outnumbered the bad. It could be that a certain level of celebrityhood and the slavish nature of aquiring knives has led to unrealistic expectations. Or is the buisness dichotemy vs severe passion prone to collision once in awhile?

For just a couple of my precieved quasi-bad (not the real bad) experiences:

My first custom knife bought at a show in 1987. I didn't know much about liner locks then but this maker was a pioneer in the field so I assumed it would be OK. It turned out, later, I noticed that the knife closed on the spacer and that it didn't even come close to stopping on the blade stop pin when closed. I asked the maker about it at the next show and he blew me off saying, snidely that, "it shouldn't hurt" so it "wasn't worth doing anything about." Ok maybe I caught the maker at a bad time but to boot the liner never really locked the blade very well either. Years later in a fit of insanity I aquired another of the makers knives from a dealer (they are good looking knives) thinking they'd improved. This one had a pivot bolt that didn't go all the way through to the other handle slab causing the blade to wobble no matter what (not to mention where the washer ended up), the lock only worked when you looked at it (just holding the knife caused the liner to close) and the blade closed on the spacer (must be a trademark or something). At least on this one I was able to grind the spacer down enough so that it didn't do that (I was committed to making this knife work). If I had done that on the earlier one there would be no screws holding the knife together but at least the blade would close on the stop pin. This maker is still going strong and has a lot of "hype" so I always wonder if people are really using the guys knives or whether I was unlucky. The other knives I've inspected of his, to me, seem to remain about 50/50 in terms of quality.

At another show I asked a maker about the spanner screws he was using as opposed to the allen almost everyone else was using at the time. This maker said he didn't want his customers taking his knives apart (fair enough) and then added rather condescendingly that "there are lots of little parts in there that you'd lose if you got it apart." Hell it was a lockback. If this guy has "lots of little parts" in it then somethings wrong.

I've got a few even more poignient/rotten experiences but they'd also take a lot more writing (and be more one-sided, which goes against my theory).

Of course there are two sides to every story. Perhaps the 1st maker was just really busy and his standards are different than mine. Maybe my hand shape 'causes the liners on his designs to close inadvertantly so I should've tried them out thoroughly before committing. Maybe the guy is just gruff and I didn't ask at a PC time or way. Theres probably a myriad of plausible reasons. After all this maker is still going strong so his stuff must be good right?

For the 2nd guy, perhaps he was trying to make a sale at a crowded show and I was just standing there asking irrelevant questions. Maybe I looked particularly geeky or disheveled that day having popped a couple of pimples that morning and drove 6hrs in a hot car. Maybe I didn't have the "experienced knife guy look" or beer belly. Or perhaps I didn't look like I was gonna buy. Or maybe my preception of a slight was wrong having driven so far and long. Maybe I was precieved to be the rude guy for asking the question.
Who knows, it is the preception to me, the customer, that I've retained right or wrong.

Maybe I'm in denial due to knife addiction.

Under certain conditions its plausible that a maker could do no right and in the same breath, to some, do no wrong. After all making a living from knifemaking must involve that balance between making $$$, the passion, celebrityhood and syncopath management. Occasionally the elements may not remain in harmony resulting in bad knives, bad consumer relations, heart attacks, stalkers, rude behavior, the runs, etc.

The good/nice makers get less storytime 'cause "good" is the standard so its less heralded but more important. This tends to make the negative appear greater than it perhaps is. One thing though, I'm buying a lot less custom knives and theres only a couple of makers I order stuff from these days. Am I burning out, fed up? or is production getting better quality and variety? Or are my own hobbyist knives less pathetic? Or am I just out of money?

This thread really isn't really about a list of good makers but to be fair three of my favs remain:

Mel Pardue--the guy will talk you silly about knives whether your buying or not and always treat you like a peer (even if your just a pseudo peer). Everyone knows that already though.

Vince Evans--Deep into his craft but always interested in the finer points of classic design or construction. His wife Grace is always very gracious too.

Bob Lum--Great guy, great designs and quality/value and has a deep interest in the knives hes made well after the sale (like they're his kids or something)

Of course there are tons of other good makers as well as a few evil ones. Soooooo in
conclusion: Good outweighs bad, but bad
exists and remains more memorable sometimes due to good being the standard.

What was the original question/thread?
 
Mr.Onion, It would be nice if SOME
custom knife maker would answer his
email.
 
Orrin,

Whoooo... nice shot across someone's bow. Probably, didn't help you much with that sarcasm...
wink.gif


Fact is if some custom maker you're interested in don't care to respond, or do not respond as timely as you would wish, hey... take a walk. Find another. But, if you really want that maker's knife bad enough realize that others may too and the maker is busy. Just the way it is.

Frankly, I had pursued knives by several makers and ultimately gave up because I just didn't feel they were worth ultimately whatever hassle/effort to get them. No skin off my nose, nor off theirs.
smile.gif


I have one maker who I placed an order with for over a year. The due date is way past by 9 or so months. Several emails exchanged. I am still waiting but I ain't holding my breath. I figure if I get it, I pay the man and it be my last knife with him. If I don't get it, no harm done since I don't have a deposit in. I ain't happy nor am I angry about it. I figure he has his reasons. Well, I heard though the grapevine, the man has a family crisis which he is being quiet about. I feel for the man. I'll take the knife when it gets to me. There are priorities and there are PRIORITIES.

Overall, Like Will, I have been happy with the custom makers I have ended up dealing/working with. It has been a learning experience with each and every knife/maker. I think part of it is intuitive, part of it is following the comments of folks here as well as the makers, and another part is the communication with the maker. Heck, thinking more about it, even the not so positive experiences have been helpful shaping a better experience the next time around.

Enough rambling,
smile.gif


sing

AKTI #A000356

 
YES THERE IS!!!!! why are so many knifemakers so fat....take you for instance!!
smile.gif
to those who email ken and dont get an answer...dont be disappointed, he doesnt answer me either and im his friend!! (at least he makes me think i am
smile.gif
)

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http://www.mayoknives.com




[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 07-05-2000).]
 
A synopsis of my custom maker experience is: excellent to very good, with one disapointment a while back.

I think the biggest gripe is missed deadlines, delays, and those not being communicated in a timely fashion; secondly, a product different than expected. These are issues that should and could be ironed out between the customer and maker, privately. If that doesn't work, then there's the next level, and so on.

In view of the exchange that prompted your post, I think the overall demeanor and tenor if it is a result of the medium it played out in. Posting threads and responses via the forums is akin to driving.

People's behavior towards others while behind the wheel is often much different than face-to-face contact and telephone conversations, leading to all manner of problems.

Good thread topic...

 
Ken
I don't see a real problem with knifemakers
and hype. I believe only a small percentage of knifemakers hype their products.
It's the customers that hype the products.
Like you, I've been collecting knives for a long time and have never been burned by a knifemaker.
I do business with many custom knifemakers every day and, as I'm sure you well know, there aren't a more honest bunch of people to be found. I wish the other businesses I sell products to were like knifemakers.
Here is where i see a problem.
Years ago when I heard about a knifemaker I would look to see him at a show, check the purveyors, ask if they've seen the knives etc. I'd do whatever I could to find out about the guy from the sources that were
availible to me
Now we have the internet that has forever changed the way knives are sold.
Information is at our finger tips. But is it accurate information?
What I am seeing is hype by the customers.
So and so is the BEST knifemaker etc.
A while back Les Robertson posted along the lines of people not having their profile filled out and readers had no idea if the people posting advice in the forums actually
had any experience to back themselves. Problem is a lot of people don't like giving too much information on themselves.
At the time I misunderstood his statements
and took it as an elitist attitude but now see what he was thinking and more and more
see how valuable it could be if people used it.
A person new to knife collecting can come here and easily see people posting here calling joe knifemaker the best with perfect fit and finish and so forth not knowing that the person is talking about his first custom knife, never even been to a knife show to compare the work to that of other knifemakers and the usual ways we determined the value of a knife.
Many people are now buying their knives
without ever seeing the knifemakers work
based on what is read here in these forums.
It's very easy for a small group of joe knifemakers customers to hype his knives and that they do.
In regard to Cliffs question. Should a knifemaker say anything?
It's not very likely. With the tremendous amount of sales the internet generates it I don't think likely a knifemaker would do anything to stop the hype.
 
TowW,

It's true the customer is going to hype a maker if they like the knife. Heck, they spent money on it.
smile.gif
This is especially true of someone new to custom knives. But, if it's just pure hype with nothing backing the knife/maker, it'll eventually play out and may come back to haunt the maker.

I still consider myself a newbie with custom knives. Even so, I was still able to recognize my first handmade knife as lacking in quality compared to some of the less expensive factory knives I had. I remember reading threads about the maker where the observations were reflective of mine. This brings up another point that most folks, short of having very disposable income, won't jump into the custom knife arena until they have played with production knives for awhile. So, they don't go into totally without a knowledge base.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
I may be a little green behind the ears when it comes to custom knives as I do not own a custom folder yet and only have two custom fixed blades. But I do know what I expect in terms of quality when paying the big bucks. My first experience with custom folders was quite a revelation. I was in a very well stocked store with a large selection of custom knives. The sampling of which I will discuss included 6-8 examples from each of 3 makers whom I can honestly say are easily among the top 10 makers in the country in tactical folders. To say my expectations were high is an understatement, as I was practically drooling with anticipation. Time for a dose of reality. While being on full sensory overload, I still inspected each model carefully and tried hard to get a feel for the knife (at this point the salesman pretty much left me alone as watching me was getting quite boring
biggrin.gif
) in hand. While at one time, 2 of these makers were high on my list of must have knives. Not anymore. If the samples I handled were any indication of what I could expect on a custom order, no thank you. Fit & finish were not what I had expected, blade play was evident in some and could not be easily adjusted (this maker uses a custom pivot to prevent customer tampering, hence it would have to be shipped back) and they all lacked the feel of quality that I had expected. This would all be acceptable to me except that these guys were supposed to be so darned good! Say's who? People who have bought these knives due to the hype that surrounds them. Hype that is being generated by consumers who think because of what they have read that this maker's knife MUST be of quality construction. Magazines who publish all the pretty pictures (which I love BTW
wink.gif
), post the wonderful specs and give the buyer all he wants to see and hear and nothing he doesn't. In the end though, it is not the maker's fault as much as it is the people who generate and believe this stuff. Get real. Form your own opinion of what you think your knife should be. And for heavens sake, don't believe every single thing you read. I also think that people need to share their bad knife experiences as often as they share their good ones. In addition to enlightening potential buyers, this would also serve to keep the maker's on their toes.

My first custom folder is due to arrive tomorrow (finally
biggrin.gif
) and it is not from one of the "big names". It is from a maker with which I have no first hand experience. There is not a single bit of hype involved in this purchase as I have not read any rave reviews or comments on his incredible work. He promised nothing out of the ordinary for his knives other than that I would be happy with them. He was very friendly during communications and everything has gone without a hitch so far. If a problem does arise, I am confident that it will be handled professionally. Something that really sticks in my mind concerning this maker is a quote of his, "you are only as good as the last knife that leaves your shop". Maker's who continue to access their abilities based on true customer satisfaction and pride in their work, stand a much better chance of repeat customers. Those maker's resting on their laurels and feeling they no longer have to prove their talents and satisfy their customers may one day awake to find the scenery changed. For what it is worth, the cost of finding new customers is approx. 10 times that of maintaining your current ones. True customer satisfaction is the key to success for any maker as repeat customers will outlast the latest craze or fashion and keep coming back for more.

[This message has been edited by blademan 13 (edited 07-06-2000).]
 
Dave Ellis, ABS, Mastersmith here. Having been a collector for over 20 years I feel I have a fairly good insight on the marketplace. Having been a maker since 1988 I think that I see some of the pitfalls that makers fall in. Having been a dealer for the last few years (mostly high end customs) I think that customers want's are paramount.
In the many years that I have collected I ha ve only had a couple of problems. these would not have manifested themselves if I had not been dumb enough to pay for the knives up front (or a good portion thereof).
The majority of makers, dealers, etc. are just like the rest of the population, mostly honest, hardworking people. On the other hand a lot of knifemakers are very poor businesspeople! They need to learn to sell, honor promises and in general learn how to do business properly. Making knives is just the beginning ,if you cannot market yourself and your product you are s?it out of luck.
Dave Ellis, ABS, M.S. http://www.mastersmith.com
new monthly special on site as well as new knives for sale in collection side of site.

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Orrin,

Touche! you got me and I'm guilty as charged. Realistically I cannot answer all my E mails and build knives to. This whole computer thing is new to me and I'm a lousey typer. I don't know what to do .

Any suggestions are appreciated . What would or do you do to answer 75-300 E-mails a week.I travel a great deal and sometimes cannot read my mail for weeks .I'm extremely grateful to all those interested in purchasing a knife and would like to take care of everyone. However this is impossable to do at this time.
I still build them from scratch, one at a time.
I can be reached via phone 1-(808) 674-1300 any time as I can still work and talk at the same time and look forward talking to people one on one.
I assure you that knifemakers are alwayse interested in building there customers the best knife they can in a reasonable time frame without compromising quality .This takes time and effort and sometimes we get overwhelmed by the response we get and flattered that so many people are interested in our knives.And quite often we take more orders than we thought and as a result fall behind.Our intentions are genuine it's life that throws a wrench into timetables .
I want nothing more than to take care of everyone I can but were only human and can only build so many knives.
Go visit a local knifemaker and you will see that theres alot more work to building a knife than meets the eye,and only so many hours in a day.
Just my thoughts, I'm gonna go back out in the shop and build some more knives !
Aloha!!! Ken Onion

 
Mr.Onion,
Thanks for the reply and also the Email!

Sorry for the sharp post.
Jeff
 
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