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Is there a real benefit to Damascus blades?
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not2sharp
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Once upon a time, in a place far far away, the process was used to increase the carbon content of the steel. Today with many flavors of nice high quality steel available from the mill it is mostly done for looks. Interwoven with this issue is the whole arguement over whether a forged blade is superior to a stock removal blade. But, that is not what you have asked so lets leave that discussion for another thread.
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Not too long ago, paracelcus (I think - somebody, anyway) posted a lengthy reply to this very question. Should be able to find it using the "search" function - I'd have looked for it myself, but ... I'm tremendously lazy.
Briefly, though ... yes and no ... but mostly no.
From a semi-technical point of view, when you mix two (or more) different alloys into one piece, the finished piece should retain much of the properties of both materials. Which should be good, right? The thing is, for this to really be an advantage, the mix would have to be homogenous - kind of like a milkshake.
Damascus isn't put together to be homogenous - it's a layered dessert, and you can't ask the icing to taste like the cake.
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What's that - bag of tricks?
... Bag of knives!
Briefly, though ... yes and no ... but mostly no.
From a semi-technical point of view, when you mix two (or more) different alloys into one piece, the finished piece should retain much of the properties of both materials. Which should be good, right? The thing is, for this to really be an advantage, the mix would have to be homogenous - kind of like a milkshake.
Damascus isn't put together to be homogenous - it's a layered dessert, and you can't ask the icing to taste like the cake.
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What's that - bag of tricks?
... Bag of knives!
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It ALWAYS looks cool (even scratched)
As far as performance goes it seem to be pretty good. I haven't tested it to any extent, though, so I'll leave that one alone.
As far as performance goes it seem to be pretty good. I haven't tested it to any extent, though, so I'll leave that one alone.
Elvislives
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From a user standpoint I'd only buy it for looks, given the alternatives.
From a respect for great talent standpoint, I'd buy it out of pure appreciation for craftsmanship...
-edited for unfinished thought...
[This message has been edited by Elvislives (edited 05-28-2001).]
From a respect for great talent standpoint, I'd buy it out of pure appreciation for craftsmanship...
-edited for unfinished thought...
[This message has been edited by Elvislives (edited 05-28-2001).]
The steel performance very much depends on what you use for the damascus, I think. Tai Goo once forged damascus out of a stack of bottle caps and steel water pipes. Loved that, and the finished blade was beautiful (if anyone knows where to find the pictures of that, I´d be grateful. I lost the link).
The historical Wootz steel (that was traded in places like Damascus, that´s where the name comes from) was very different from modern pattern welded "Damauscus". Wootz had ultra-high carbon content and has very interesting material properties. Some people managed to re-create the formula recently.
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"Peace is not without conflict; it is the ability to cope with conflict" - Leo Giron
The historical Wootz steel (that was traded in places like Damascus, that´s where the name comes from) was very different from modern pattern welded "Damauscus". Wootz had ultra-high carbon content and has very interesting material properties. Some people managed to re-create the formula recently.
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"Peace is not without conflict; it is the ability to cope with conflict" - Leo Giron
"Damascus", forge welded, seems to be a term that applies to many different techniques and knives. I guess it apply to Wootz, traditional japanese blades, and they were made in different ways, what Moran popularised, some laminates, and also what is being done with powdered metal too. We've got some of the best proponents of these arts right here on BFF, and I hope they're not going to take the minimisation of what they do lying down!
As I understand it, most of these techniques were intended to increase performance in some way through increased carbon content, reducing impurities, increased impact resistance, complementation of different steel properties, and more. I don't know that the more recent powdered stuff that guys like Perrsson do is supposed to have any performance advantages but, wow, they sure do look amazing!
How these things actually compare to modern super performance steels and methods in fact - I dunno. I'd love to hear or see some data. Stories would be good too
As I understand it, most of these techniques were intended to increase performance in some way through increased carbon content, reducing impurities, increased impact resistance, complementation of different steel properties, and more. I don't know that the more recent powdered stuff that guys like Perrsson do is supposed to have any performance advantages but, wow, they sure do look amazing!
How these things actually compare to modern super performance steels and methods in fact - I dunno. I'd love to hear or see some data. Stories would be good too
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You should consider damascus as being an improvement in looks only. This viewpoint will not lead you far astray.
Damascus absolutely can not perform any better than the steels used in fabricating the damascus...
... with this tiny little caveat...
There is a very subtle micro serration effect of damascus, based on the alternating layers of steel, and how they alternate through a sliced material. This would appear to be most noticeable (and IMHO very subtle anyway) in tight ladder pattern damascus.
This micro-serration effect can be, IMHO, significantly bettered by simply leaving your final edge a bit toothy, say with a fine or medium diamond stone.
Problem is generally one of how to heat treat damascus. Each alloy has an optimum austenizing temperature, optimum soak time and temperature & number of temper cycles, optimum response to cryo, etc.
Damascus is a sort of amalgam of the steels used to make the billet. Heat treating damascus is a bit of a compromise, especially in the stainless stuff. Problems are multiple, from clean welding to carbon migration out of high-carbon alloy and into low carbon alloys (mitigated somewhat by careful sandwiching of 300 series or nickel between layers).
I can't prove this from extensive testing, but I think this is safe ground:
* If you know the materials used in damascus, the blade will perform no higher than, and very likely less well than the best of the alloys used in fabrication.
* Example: A SS Damask blade from D2, AEBL, & 304 will perform less well than D2 and at very best, can approach D2 only if at same hardness as a comparison blade of D2. Problem is, the damascus might peak at Rc57-58, and D2 can be had at Rc60-61 and this hardness difference will allow better edge retention & slicing performance in general.
* Example: A blade from 0-2 and 15-N-20 may perform up to O2 or up to 15-n-20, but not higher than a pure blade of O2.
Be VERY skeptical of any outrageous claims about damascus performance in true usage, whether chopping, slicing, bending, twisting, push cutting, any kind of knife use.
Damascus is really beautiful stuff, and performs "OK" depending on the variety. Buy it because you want to admire it, appreciate it, or because you want the knife to hold it's value in collector market better.
Ok, I've donned my Nomex suit and am prepared for the flamethrowers.
See this very carefully worded reply by Anne Reeve... Chris is a very performance oriented guy...
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/001089.html
[This message has been edited by rdangerer (edited 05-28-2001).]
Damascus absolutely can not perform any better than the steels used in fabricating the damascus...
... with this tiny little caveat...
There is a very subtle micro serration effect of damascus, based on the alternating layers of steel, and how they alternate through a sliced material. This would appear to be most noticeable (and IMHO very subtle anyway) in tight ladder pattern damascus.
This micro-serration effect can be, IMHO, significantly bettered by simply leaving your final edge a bit toothy, say with a fine or medium diamond stone.
Problem is generally one of how to heat treat damascus. Each alloy has an optimum austenizing temperature, optimum soak time and temperature & number of temper cycles, optimum response to cryo, etc.
Damascus is a sort of amalgam of the steels used to make the billet. Heat treating damascus is a bit of a compromise, especially in the stainless stuff. Problems are multiple, from clean welding to carbon migration out of high-carbon alloy and into low carbon alloys (mitigated somewhat by careful sandwiching of 300 series or nickel between layers).
I can't prove this from extensive testing, but I think this is safe ground:
* If you know the materials used in damascus, the blade will perform no higher than, and very likely less well than the best of the alloys used in fabrication.
* Example: A SS Damask blade from D2, AEBL, & 304 will perform less well than D2 and at very best, can approach D2 only if at same hardness as a comparison blade of D2. Problem is, the damascus might peak at Rc57-58, and D2 can be had at Rc60-61 and this hardness difference will allow better edge retention & slicing performance in general.
* Example: A blade from 0-2 and 15-N-20 may perform up to O2 or up to 15-n-20, but not higher than a pure blade of O2.
Be VERY skeptical of any outrageous claims about damascus performance in true usage, whether chopping, slicing, bending, twisting, push cutting, any kind of knife use.
Damascus is really beautiful stuff, and performs "OK" depending on the variety. Buy it because you want to admire it, appreciate it, or because you want the knife to hold it's value in collector market better.
Ok, I've donned my Nomex suit and am prepared for the flamethrowers.
See this very carefully worded reply by Anne Reeve... Chris is a very performance oriented guy...
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/001089.html
[This message has been edited by rdangerer (edited 05-28-2001).]
GronK
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My only experience with Damascus is with a Parker USA small locking folder I bought several years ago for under $20. Don't know if it's the steel or the geometry or whatever but it was the sharpest "out of the box" of any knife I've owned. Holds the edge really well too.
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GronK
Just 'cause yer paranoid don't mean someone ain't out to get ya!
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GronK
Just 'cause yer paranoid don't mean someone ain't out to get ya!
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Thanks guys. I kinda figured it was mostly for looks and agree the various patterns made by talented makers are VERY COOL. I can see where it would also enhance resale value too.
I just wondered if there was a practical reason for damascus given todays technology.
I guess my question has been answered. Thanks again.
I just wondered if there was a practical reason for damascus given todays technology.
I guess my question has been answered. Thanks again.
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The thing about a using Damascus is that you have to look at many different facters.
! what is in the mix,how much low or no carbon has been put into the mix.To much and your blade wont hold a edege but will still look pretty.
I preffer all the layers to be mixed with all high carbon steels and no low carbon-for a working blade-
!next is was it forged under a power hammer or press,or was it done by hand.The reason for this is that everytime that the billet is brought up to heat to weld it you are burning out more of the carbon,soif you are doing it by hand you will be in the fire 4 or more times longer than the other way,so less total carbon in the blade and less edge holding ability.
!Next is how many layers is in the mix when the blade is made.For working knives I preffer to use low layer Damascus as this means less trips to the fire so more carbon retention,thus better edge holding.The high layer Damascus does give you a saw tooth type of edge so it will cut really well and should perform really well also though.
!I have found that if you want a good Damascus to work with you can't beat a good high carbon cable Damascus Blade,This will be all one kind of steel so it heat treats the same,isn't in the fire as much as regular Damascus as once it is welded you can just forge out the blade and thus more carbon in the steel.
!Don't be afraid to ask questions of the maker on how his Damascus was constructed and has he tested any of it.I for one would rather have a customer ask me how my Blades are constructed and give them my opinion on wheather I think it would make a good working Blade than send one to them and have it not be what they were wanting and then I have a unhappy customer which isn't a good thing at all....
Hope this helps out some.It's just my findings and ideas.
Bruce
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Bruce Evans Handcrafted Knives
The soul of the Knife begins in the Fire!!!!!
Member of,AKTI#A000223 and The American Bladesmith Society
! what is in the mix,how much low or no carbon has been put into the mix.To much and your blade wont hold a edege but will still look pretty.
I preffer all the layers to be mixed with all high carbon steels and no low carbon-for a working blade-
!next is was it forged under a power hammer or press,or was it done by hand.The reason for this is that everytime that the billet is brought up to heat to weld it you are burning out more of the carbon,soif you are doing it by hand you will be in the fire 4 or more times longer than the other way,so less total carbon in the blade and less edge holding ability.
!Next is how many layers is in the mix when the blade is made.For working knives I preffer to use low layer Damascus as this means less trips to the fire so more carbon retention,thus better edge holding.The high layer Damascus does give you a saw tooth type of edge so it will cut really well and should perform really well also though.
!I have found that if you want a good Damascus to work with you can't beat a good high carbon cable Damascus Blade,This will be all one kind of steel so it heat treats the same,isn't in the fire as much as regular Damascus as once it is welded you can just forge out the blade and thus more carbon in the steel.
!Don't be afraid to ask questions of the maker on how his Damascus was constructed and has he tested any of it.I for one would rather have a customer ask me how my Blades are constructed and give them my opinion on wheather I think it would make a good working Blade than send one to them and have it not be what they were wanting and then I have a unhappy customer which isn't a good thing at all....
Hope this helps out some.It's just my findings and ideas.
Bruce
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Bruce Evans Handcrafted Knives
The soul of the Knife begins in the Fire!!!!!
Member of,AKTI#A000223 and The American Bladesmith Society
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Just finished reading Ed Fowler's great book. He has one great story about a Damascus steel he made that was a cutting fury, but after sitting around for 6 mos was absolutely useless. Said 3 cuts of hemp rope reduced it to butterknife capability. I'm sure that Ed would come down on the lower performance perception of Damascus compared to forged single source steels.
He also talks about forging all his blades oversize. He recognizes that the time in the fire burns carbon out of the steel. He forges to at least 3/16ths overall, maybe a bit more on the edge, then even when grinding before heat treat/temper, he leaves at least 1/16th extra. Then, for final grind, he removes that surface steel with less carbon, and the "good" steel beneath it becomes the surface. Sure, it means more work, and the loss of some material, but the way Ed puts it, it is the only logical way to be certain that the best steel from the forging becomes the blade.
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Asi es la vida
Bugs
He also talks about forging all his blades oversize. He recognizes that the time in the fire burns carbon out of the steel. He forges to at least 3/16ths overall, maybe a bit more on the edge, then even when grinding before heat treat/temper, he leaves at least 1/16th extra. Then, for final grind, he removes that surface steel with less carbon, and the "good" steel beneath it becomes the surface. Sure, it means more work, and the loss of some material, but the way Ed puts it, it is the only logical way to be certain that the best steel from the forging becomes the blade.
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Asi es la vida
Bugs
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They are the best looking steels around, apart from a laminated Katana with a traditional Hamon.
Interesting question here, I was told that the Vikings used a lamination/damascus steel mix for thier heavy war swords, any truth to this?
Oh and is damasteel a damasus steel using stainless steel?
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
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A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Interesting question here, I was told that the Vikings used a lamination/damascus steel mix for thier heavy war swords, any truth to this?
Oh and is damasteel a damasus steel using stainless steel?
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
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Ok, this was explained to me by an ABS Mastersmith. It all depends on the steel mix used and the heat treat. For the best performance, both steels should be high carbon. Otherwise you are just diluting the carbon content of the final product. Then, both steels must be similar in the heat treat. If you use a water hardening(W1,W2, 1095, etc.), and mix it with an oil hardening(L6, O1, etc.), then you are going to have to compromise on the heat treat. Quenching this mix as a water hardening steel would be too much for the slower, oil hardening steel and would cause micro cracking. If you heat treat it as an oil hardening steel, the water hardening steel in the mix does not get hard enough. This is why I like the mix of O1 and L6. They are almost identical in heat treat and still make a beautiful blade. Proper heat treat of a blade with this mix will give you a blade that cuts as well as just about anything and will be very tough because of the L6 saw steel in it. Now, whether this cuts any better than plain O1 or is tougher than plain L6, I dont know. It does seem to have a scary, toothy type edge, for sure. I am not about to torture test any of my damascus blades, but it sure looks great!
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Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
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Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
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I have had about 6 knives made from Damascus over the years. Two were by the same maker. The camp knife held a great edge but the hunter by the same maker had a great pattern...but was a turd.
I had a Case lockback with a Damascus blade and it never held an edge.
The only Damascus I have now is a 9.75 in Bagwell bowie. It cuts like a demon!
In his book. "Bowies, Big Knives, etc" he states:
"The 3rd steel represents by far the potential for the greatest blade of all AND the greatest likelihood that you will be ripped off. A good Damascus blade has an incredible keeness to its edge not possessed by other steels, is extremely shock resistant, and is capable of holding its edge for an unbelievable length of time. In addition, it's very easy to sharppen"
He goes on to say that it is very difficult to properly handle both in the heat treat and manufacture. He claims there are very few people out there who can do it right...and of course, he is one of them! But, judging by the bowie that I have, I cannot disagree!!!
He told me that he does very little damascus anymore because of the cost. It was also interesting that he expressed concern that it was possible, not probable, that he has made some "less than great" Damascus too.
The problem is that with the cost of Damascus so high.....that most blades from it will never see its full use played out.
I had a Case lockback with a Damascus blade and it never held an edge.
The only Damascus I have now is a 9.75 in Bagwell bowie. It cuts like a demon!
In his book. "Bowies, Big Knives, etc" he states:
"The 3rd steel represents by far the potential for the greatest blade of all AND the greatest likelihood that you will be ripped off. A good Damascus blade has an incredible keeness to its edge not possessed by other steels, is extremely shock resistant, and is capable of holding its edge for an unbelievable length of time. In addition, it's very easy to sharppen"
He goes on to say that it is very difficult to properly handle both in the heat treat and manufacture. He claims there are very few people out there who can do it right...and of course, he is one of them! But, judging by the bowie that I have, I cannot disagree!!!
He told me that he does very little damascus anymore because of the cost. It was also interesting that he expressed concern that it was possible, not probable, that he has made some "less than great" Damascus too.
The problem is that with the cost of Damascus so high.....that most blades from it will never see its full use played out.
not2sharp
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General,
You may want to read The Archaeology of Weapons, by Ewart Oakeshott (ISBN 1-56619-596-9. Ewart reports that Domascus forging technology was far more advanced and prevalent in Europe then previously thought. Apparently, many swords once thought to have been of simple construction proved otherwise when the ancient patina was removed and the blade polished and restored.
You may want to read The Archaeology of Weapons, by Ewart Oakeshott (ISBN 1-56619-596-9. Ewart reports that Domascus forging technology was far more advanced and prevalent in Europe then previously thought. Apparently, many swords once thought to have been of simple construction proved otherwise when the ancient patina was removed and the blade polished and restored.
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not2sharp, thanks! I will look into getting that book. I think it was one of my lecturers in Uni, who told me this.
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
I've heard that the vikings' swords were actually very sophisticated and even comparable to the Japanese. But that gem came off the net. If anyone is interested, http://www.ifh.ee.ethz.ch/~ballisti/iaido/euro_vs_jap_swords-two.html
Anyway, I'm surprised that damascus has so few supporters in terms of performance. What about the legendary super-high carbon wootz knives? Supposedly they could split silk just lightly dropped on the edge. And their battle performance was literally legendary. Are the modern steels really that much better that all the art of manipulating the metals through forging and combining and tempering doesn't measure up in terms of performance? Joe, say it ain't so !
[This message has been edited by HJK (edited 05-29-2001).]
Anyway, I'm surprised that damascus has so few supporters in terms of performance. What about the legendary super-high carbon wootz knives? Supposedly they could split silk just lightly dropped on the edge. And their battle performance was literally legendary. Are the modern steels really that much better that all the art of manipulating the metals through forging and combining and tempering doesn't measure up in terms of performance? Joe, say it ain't so !
[This message has been edited by HJK (edited 05-29-2001).]
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Good input from Bruce Evans and Danbo... appreciate it guys... good info!
On Damasteel, briefly:
1. They use powdered metallurgy technology for the metals.
2. The two steels are Euro versions of ATS-34 and 12c27.
3. I hear they approach ATS-34 in performance when heat treated correctly, may help that the powdered metallurgy keeps grain size down, not sure if that makes total sense to me but if they use a similar technology to CPM, could be true.
4. Harder to etch, and lines are not that crisp, since there weren't really true sheets or layers to start with, only layers of powder. Often has a watery look, not crisp.
See more here:
http://www.damasteel.se/1Tech.htm
Having said that, for stainless, Damasteel probably outperforms most of the other SS damask stuff, although some makers swear Norris stuff will run with ATS-34.
On Damasteel, briefly:
1. They use powdered metallurgy technology for the metals.
2. The two steels are Euro versions of ATS-34 and 12c27.
3. I hear they approach ATS-34 in performance when heat treated correctly, may help that the powdered metallurgy keeps grain size down, not sure if that makes total sense to me but if they use a similar technology to CPM, could be true.
4. Harder to etch, and lines are not that crisp, since there weren't really true sheets or layers to start with, only layers of powder. Often has a watery look, not crisp.
See more here:
http://www.damasteel.se/1Tech.htm
Having said that, for stainless, Damasteel probably outperforms most of the other SS damask stuff, although some makers swear Norris stuff will run with ATS-34.