Is there a "steel-top-ten-list"?

S

Slowstarter

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Is there a "steel-top-ten-list"? I would like you steel experts to make me a steel-yop-ten-list. I would like o have lists in these categories...

1. Top-ten-steel for SHARP knives. (Wich steels can take a wicked edge?)

2. Top-ten-steel for STRONG/DURABLE knives. (Wich steels can take most abuse?)

3. Top-ten-steel for RUST RESISTANT/STAINLESS knives. (wich steels never rust).

Can you make me these lists please? Could be a Sticky if it turns out well.

Cheers!
 
The one and only Sal Glesser has compared steels to ice creams.It's an apt description IMO. You can make a list of your favorite flavors and I doubt very much you will find anyone with the exact selections in the same order.As long as our uses, needs and likes differ so will our steel choices. In addition, there isn't any bad steels. Some are better suited to different jobs and conditions than others. They were all made with a use in mind.

In addition, it's fun trying new flavors just like new steels. :)

Joe
 
1 does not exist, getting steel sharp is simply a matter of refining the bevels to where they meet at as small a point as possible, at a low angle. Any steel can me made sharp through the use of various abrasives. "Taking" an edge is not an issue for any cutlery steel.

2 depends on what you mean by strength/durability, but there are measurements of yield/ultimate/tensile strength and fracture toughness.

3 H1, cobalt alloys (talonite, stellite), X15TN, Cronidur 30, quite a few
 
All steels can take a razor edge. Edge and blade geometry are more important than steel in terms of cutting performance, i.e. "sharpness". As for maximum edge retention, both steel chemistry AND optimal heat treatment come into play. There are a large variety of steels that can hold an edge for a considerable amount of time. Most of these steels are high-carbon steels with large amounts of carbides coming from various elements in the steel, such as cobalt, vanadium, silicon, and chromium.

These are some of those steels (listed in no particular order): K390, CPM 10V, CPM 15V, CPM REX 121, S125V, S110V, S90V, M390, ZDP-189, MPL-1, CTS-20CP, CTS-204P...

As for toughness, lower carbon steels and tool steels can be very tough, at the expense of edge retention.
Some steels (in no particular order): 1055, 1084, 1095, 52100, 5160, CPM 3V, CPM 4V, INFI, S7, L6

There a few very stain resistant steels on the market, many use nitrogen instead of carbon to achieve this. Large amounts of chromium also contribute to corrosion resistance.
A few steels: H1, X15-TN, N680

I'm sure there are many more that I haven't listed.
 
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The various features of steel cancel each other out in various degrees and therefore you can not just ramp them all up. Focus on one attribute and you will have to reduce another, which one is best to focus on is determined by the purpose of the knife. Just like there is no best shape. ;) You can't increase swing power in a knife forever by more weight and expect to keep the "light weightness" of it.
 
The usual categories are "wear resistance" and "toughness".
"Wear resistance" is often considered to be how long sharpness will last, but this is often erroneous because there can be micro-chipping on the edge causing the dulling, which is not involved in the wear resistance figures.
"Toughness" is often considered to be how well a knife can take impact stress before breaking or chipping. This can affect the edge holding because a tough steel *might* be less likely to micro-chip at the edge, and thus *seem* to have better edge retention because of this, even though it shows a lower "wear resistance" figure.

"Hardness" is involved with the deformation characteristics. The harder the steel is, the less likely it is to bend or dent or roll. But it might be more likely to chip or fracture from brittleness. So, each steel seems to have its "sweet spot" where it performs well at a certain hardness range.

"Stain resistance" is basically like rust-resistance, and there are some that aren't stainless, some that are semi-stainless or nearly stainless, and there are true stainless. It's normally determined by the amount of Chromium in the alloy. Typically Chromium of 20%+ for true stainless. 15% is getting close.

So, you have your choices.
Some are very wear resistant, but they aren't very high in toughness.
Some are very tough, but they aren't very high in wear resistance.
And in-between there is a wide variety of somewhat tough and somewhat wear-resistant.

The super-high wear resistant stainless steels that we might be able to get in knives from some manufucturers would be CPM-90V, CPM-110V, M390, CTS-20CP, and some others I may have left out.
The super-high toughness steels are generally not stainless, but might be semi-stainless, like CPM-3V, S7. And some that are not stainless, like INFI, and at a lower level there would be 5160, 1055, 1075 etc..
The very good ones in the middle, which exhibit a high level of both wear-resistance and toughness together, are non-stainless like CPM-M4, CPM-D2, and stainless like Elmax, CPM-154, CPM-S35VN, CPM-S30V.
Steels showing ability to work at very high hardness numbers are ZDP-189 and CPM-M4 which are often seen at HRC 64 or more. You might see CPM-110V at that hardness, but probably only from a custom maker.

The fact is that nothing is perfect for every knife application, so you are always making compromises, and it drives you crazy.
The answer is to have more than one knife, with a selection that suits most jobs you might encounter.

If you are looking for one steel that has the highest numbers that are somewhat "balanced" with each other, and can also work at a very high hardness, then CPM-M4 has really high wear-resistance and very high toughness, and can work at HRC63-64. Some might consider that an example of a great all-around steel, as long as you don't need it to be stainless.
It doesn't stand out at the top of any one category, but it is reasonably high in all the categories, so that it might be considered to be an "overall" great performer in non-stainless.
 
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Ankerson has a list of steels, categorized by their ability to cut multiple successive lengths of rope, IIRC. jdavis882 and others also demonstrates many of these tests on his YOuTube channel, which you can easily find. But, as has been discussed above, there are many tests and qualifiers to determine the "best" steel. You already have, above, some very good info.
Sonny
 
There are some generalities to be gleaned from all of this.
Ability to hold an edge, for me, would be S90V, CTS 20 CP, Elmax, M390.
Toughness, non-brittle would be D2, 154CM, CPM M4.
The "much" tougher stuff, for hatchets and the like, I don't get into.
As I said...everyone's list changes.
Sonny
 
Your categories need some work...I think what you're looking for is wear resistance, toughness, and corrosion resistance though, so I'll toss out a couple steels I've used which are high in their respective categories.

1.)ZDP-189 can be run to very high hardnesses and is supposed to be capable of holding an edge for a ridiculously long time. That having been said, I'm sure there are other steels out there which come pretty close to matching it's performance. M390 seems to be pretty damned good at holding an edge as well.

2.)3V, M4, D2, 1095, L6, and others...These are all tough steels which are more likely to roll an edge than chip. I haven't worked with many of them, but they're supposed to be pretty decent...the few I have worked with, M4 (cpm) and 1095 a decent steels.

3.)H1 wins this one hands down, although there are a few others which are starting to pop up with the same corrosion resistance. H1 can be immersed in salt water for long periods of time without rusting and can be found in Spyderco's salt series.
 
I like the idea of a list, but there are so many new steels out now, and so many different variables that interact with these steels, such as heat treatment and blade geometry, that a simple list is difficult, especially if you add in the purpose of the knife. To be meaningful, you'd end up with an extremely complex, three-dimensional matrix that no one but a rocket scientist could read.

From my own experience, I like Aogomi Super Blue at HRc 64 with a super thin blade for a kitchen knife.

For non-stainless, I love M2 (more so than than M4) and 52100. These steels are plenty tough and take a really nice edge that holds well and is easy to restore.

For stainless, which works best for me in an EDC, my favorite is M390. It's much like the two steels above, but I don't have to worry much about rust. I carried an M4 EDC for a long time, but it was too much of a hassle to maintain against rust. (I live in a rain forest.)
 
"1. Top-ten-steel for SHARP knives. (Which steels can take a wicked edge?)"

Some steels do take a wicked edge more easily, & hold that fine edge better (edge stability). In my limited experience, 1095, AUS8 & the Sandvik stainlesses do this.
 
A rough guide to some quality steels, Carbon- INFI, CPM M4,Hitachi Blue & White Stainless- ZDP189, Elmax, CPM 110V. This is my untested opinion based solely on what I've learnt on this forum.
 
MJF said:
Your categories need some work...I think what you're looking for is wear resistance, toughness, and corrosion resistance though, so I'll toss out a couple steels I've used which are high in their respective categories.

1.)ZDP-189 can be run to very high hardnesses and is supposed to be capable of holding an edge for a ridiculously long time. That having been said, I'm sure there are other steels out there which come pretty close to matching it's performance. M390 seems to be pretty damned good at holding an edge as well.

2.)3V, M4, D2, 1095, L6, and others...These are all tough steels which are more likely to roll an edge than chip. I haven't worked with many of them, but they're supposed to be pretty decent...the few I have worked with, M4 (cpm) and 1095 a decent steels.

3.)H1 wins this one hands down, although there are a few others which are starting to pop up with the same corrosion resistance. H1 can be immersed in salt water for long periods of time without rusting and can be found in Spyderco's salt series.
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I don't think I'd throw D2 or CPM M4 in the tough category. They are tough enough given suitable heat treatment, but in the grand scheme of cutlery steels, they are pretty far from a top 10. I might even go so far as to take 1095 out of that category, though again, it is tough enough if heat treated with toughness in mind.
 
In a lot of the discussions about knife steels, we tend to talk about which steels are the "absolute best" in a category. But the thing I've noticed is, sometimes we "knife knuts" tend to get into all the academic details, and we list the most high-end, bleeding edge steels that are not always being widely used yet (due to cost, availability, difficulty of working with them, etc) in most production and semi-custom knives that ordinary people will buy.

It almost seems like another way to put this question would be, among the current steels that are WIDELY AVAILABLE AND COMMONLY USED in production and semi-custom knives, what are the leading choices? I think for the average person asking this question, this is closer to what they are looking for. For example, if someone were to ask me what is a current, real-world list of top stainless choices in production knives costing less than $400, I'd probably start with these: S30/35v, VG10, 154cm, CPM 154, Elmax (just starting to be used more widely), M390, ZDP189, and etc.
 
Me2...Good point, a lot of this is dependent on heat treat. My understanding of it is that M4 and D2 are decently hard steels which are likely to roll rather than chip. I could be wrong though. As for 1095, I put it there because a good number of knives designed for "chopping" are made out of it. All in all though, I'm just trying to give an idea of steels I've personally used. I'm sure M4, D2, and 1095 aren't at the top of the list in terms of toughness, but I wouldn't put em near the bottom either.

What about 3V? I've heard 3V's pretty tough.
 
MJF said:
Me2...Good point, a lot of this is dependent on heat treat. My understanding of it is that M4 and D2 are decently hard steels which are likely to roll rather than chip. I could be wrong though. As for 1095, I put it there because a good number of knives designed for "chopping" are made out of it. All in all though, I'm just trying to give an idea of steels I've personally used. I'm sure M4, D2, and 1095 aren't at the top of the list in terms of toughness, but I wouldn't put em near the bottom either.

What about 3V? I've heard 3V's pretty tough.
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If you are talking about CPM-M4, it's quite tough steel. Tougher than D2, and not too far from A2. And A2 is well-reputed to be pretty tough stuff for hard-use outdoor knives. The early Busse knives were A2.
It's tougher than pretty much anything out there except A2 and CPM-3V and S7 and INFI, as far as anything that we might expect to see in a knife.
And it holds an edge as well as M390, or very close to that. The only things that beat it for edge holding are M390(by a hair), CTS-20CP, CPM-S90V, and CPM-S110V, for steels available in knives.
And at 64HRC, I don't think you'll be seeing any denting or rolling.
CPM-M4 is as tough at 63HRC as M390 is at 59HRC.
And A2 doesn't even get close to CPM-M4 for wear resistance.

If you want the next toughest steel that is seen in knives which is above CPM-M4, or A2, then you go to CPM-3V, which is extremely tough stuff. At least twice what CPM-M4 and A2 are.
But CPM-3V doesn't get as hard as CPM-M4, nor can it match CPM-M4 for wear resistance. So, you gain a lot of toughness with CPM-3V, but you lose quite a bit of wear resistance compared to CPM-M4.

To my way of thinking, CPM-M4 and CPM-3v are two of the nicest steels out there which have some sort of "middle ground" balance.
CPM-3V is tilted WAYYY toward the tough side, but it still has wear resistance about as good as D2, and maxxes-out at about 60HRC. So, it's a pretty nice steel for a hard use knife.
CPM-M4 is much more balanced in characteristics, with toughness almost as tough as A2, and wear resistance in the neighborhood of M390, so it leans more toward the wear resistance side of things. And it has a useful hardness of up to 64HRC. A lot of very hard vanadium carbide formers. It's the number one steel for Blade Sports Competition cutters. Tough and stays real sharp.

Neither one of these steels is "tops" in either toughness or wear resistance, but they are very near the top as a combination of both. With CPM-M4 leaning toward the wear resistance side, and the CPM-3V leaning more heavily toward the tough side.
 
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