Is there any federal regulation on the name "stainless" and "high carbon?"

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I have always wondered if there was some federal regulation on steels that must have a 13% or over amount of chromium in order to call itself stainless. Same with high carbon steels that must have beyond .5% carbon in it. Or can I put a piece of wrought iron and call it high carbon stainless with no one stopping me?
 
I have often wondered the same thing, but I'm gonna bet its just tradition not regulation.
 
I have always wondered if there was some federal regulation on steels that must have a 13% or over amount of chromium in order to call itself stainless. Same with high carbon steels that must have beyond .5% carbon in it. Or can I put a piece of wrought iron and call it high carbon stainless with no one stopping me?

My taxes are high enough already, thank you very much. The last thing I need is another federal bureau sucking up dollars and making no sense.

If you are dishonest enough to misrepresent wrought iron as stainless steel, go for it. I hope you profit is enough to cover the medical bills when the person you defraud decides to take it out of your hide.
 
I have always wondered if there was some federal regulation on steels that must have a 13% or over amount of chromium in order to call itself stainless. Same with high carbon steels that must have beyond .5% carbon in it. Or can I put a piece of wrought iron and call it high carbon stainless with no one stopping me?

Why? If it doesn't have the right metallurgical properties simple tests would be able to determine this, and then where would you be? A liar with a possible lawsuit on your hands for misrepresentation and intent to commit fraud, no?
 
except people do it all the time... since there's no regulation on what qualifies as stainless and high carbon, he wouldn't be facing anyone but some angry people who wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

the law would be on his side in this instance
 
From the Wikipedia: "In metallurgy stainless steel [...] is defined as a steel alloy with a minimum of 10.5 [...] or 11% chromium content by mass. [...]Stainless steel differs from carbon steel by the amount of chromium present." From Joe Talmadge's Knife Steel FAQ, stainless steel must have 13% or more of chromium. It also states that a steel with > 0.5% carbon content is a high carbon steel. It doesn't say where these definitions come from, but they seem to be a de facto standard used by most.

From this I guess that any steel with significant carbon content that has less than 13% (?) of chromium can be called high carbon steel. It really depends what anyone calls high...
 
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From the Wikipedia: "In metallurgy stainless steel [...] is defined as a steel alloy with a minimum of 10.5 [...] or 11% chromium content by mass. [...]Stainless steel differs from carbon steel by the amount of chromium present." From Joe Talmadge's Knife Steel FAQ, stainless steel must have 13% or more of chromium. It also states that a steel with > 0.5% carbon content is a high carbon steel. It doesn't say where these definitions come from, but they seem to be a de facto standard used by most.

From this I guess that any steel with significant carbon content that has less than 13% (?) of chromium can be called high carbon steel. It really depends what anyone calls high...

exactly, legally there aren't [that i know of] any qualifications. its like herbal supplements. they do what they want because they're not regulated
 
I hve heard that stainless needs 11% Cr, 12%, and 13%, I have also heard that it needs like 10% or 11% Cr free from carbides, so I am curius as well.
it seems that high carbon should mean hypereutectoid or .77% ish C or more
 
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There are various organizations around the globe involved in creating metallurgical standards (that's the great thing about standards-there's so many to choose from! HA! me so funny...). I'm not aware of any of these specifically addressing a US federally mandated spec for stainless, but I have no doubt that there is some kind of funding somewhere along the line for these organizations that do come up with these specs, from various governmental agencies around the globe.

I'd also not be surprised to find some US government contractor demanding some particular metallurgical spec for some specific project. With the history of huge and ambitious government projects in space and defense, various engineering and public works projects, it's probably happened quite a few times.
 
No, federal regulation does not exist.

Nor should it.

So we should let people make not only knives, but cookware, aviation, any place of application of steel completely free to morally lie about the truth of their materials? I'd hate to be the contractor for a building to clean up the mess after ordering a supply of stainless steels that kept rusting because the steel only contained 5% chromium and was marked "stainless."

Not that I'm a person for all sorts of business regulations I'm not as a libertarian, but I still believe that government has two roles, to protect its citizens from which is violence and lies. This most definitely falls into lies.
 
So we should let people make not only knives, but cookware, aviation, any place of application of steel completely free to morally lie about the truth of their materials? I'd hate to be the contractor for a building to clean up the mess after ordering a supply of stainless steels that kept rusting because the steel only contained 5% chromium and was marked "stainless."

Not that I'm a person for all sorts of business regulations I'm not as a libertarian, but I still believe that government has two roles, to protect its citizens from which is violence and lies. This most definitely falls into lies.

Nonsense. (this being the GF, I'll not use stronger language, though you tempt me sorely.)

When you build a building (or most anything else for that matter) you buy your materials under a contract. The contract specifies the grade of steel you are buying. Break the contract by not delivering the correct alloy and you get sued in court. If the building collapses due to your fraud you are liable for that. If someone gets hurt because of it, you face criminal charges.
 
So we should let people make not only knives, but cookware, aviation, any place of application of steel completely free to morally lie about the truth of their materials? I'd hate to be the contractor for a building to clean up the mess after ordering a supply of stainless steels that kept rusting because the steel only contained 5% chromium and was marked "stainless."

Not that I'm a person for all sorts of business regulations I'm not as a libertarian, but I still believe that government has two roles, to protect its citizens from which is violence and lies. This most definitely falls into lies.

I'd hate to be that contractor too. I'd hate to be the idiot that ordered a supply of "stainless steel" without getting specifics on what I was actually buying. I'd probably be out of a job right quick.
 
Nonsense. (this being the GF, I'll not use stronger language, though you tempt me sorely.)

When you build a building (or most anything else for that matter) you buy your materials under a contract. The contract specifies the grade of steel you are buying. Break the contract by not delivering the correct alloy and you get sued in court. If the building collapses due to your fraud you are liable for that. If someone gets hurt because of it, you face criminal charges.

Knarfeng is exactly right. This is a solution looking for a problem. If you contract a specific chemical makeup and get something different the contract is broken and the company providing the metal will end up in court and liable for any damages.

If you don't buy from a company who cares enough about their product to specify metallurgical properties and composition or who doesn't specify testing to ensure such standards then you get what you should.

I can't fathom why we'd want the fed to get in to this arena.
 
I'd hate to be that contractor too. I'd hate to be the idiot that ordered a supply of "stainless steel" without getting specifics on what I was actually buying. I'd probably be out of a job right quick.

exactly. Go and talk to a few tradesmen from a couple different fields. There are usually materials that are something like "industry standards" even though there is actually no specific regulation. They are industry standards because they work the best for certain applications (usually cost is also a factor :D ) That's called capitalism, pretty soon every plumber worth his salt is using x copper and y galvanized. and if they see Plumber B using the shitty stuff.... it won't last long.

Now, of course I realize that there actually ARE some plenty strict regulations in many of these fields, but there are also still the "crappy" materials and the quality materials that both fall within regulations, and that's where this principle really shows.

Hell, my no name set of kitchen knives I found in my parents garage say "high carbon steel" on the box, but for some reason I'm not buying it....
 
This question is a joke right?

There is no federal regulation, and keep quiet about it or there will be. There are industry standards. In the US, they are published by ASM (American Society of Metals), ASTM (American Society for Testing Materials), and several others, though they are different publications, they define things the same, with some tolerances. Any basic steel metallurgy book will define these things. To understand what the definitions mean, you have to know enough to understand the observations that lead to the different categories.

My Smith's Engineering Alloys defines stainless as 12% or greater. The reason is this is where experiments show a sharp increase in corrosion resistance in common corrosive conditions. I prefer to think of it as free chromium, since chromium tied up in carbides (or other precipitates) can't act to reduce corrosion. For some stainless steels, 12% isn't enough to show the sharp increase noted above. For others, it is observed below 12% depending on specific characteristics of the steel, such as ultra-low carbon and sulfide inclusion contents.

High carbon steel starts at 0.6% carbon. The reason it's set here is the change in appearance of the martinsite under a microscope. There is a distinct difference at or above 0.6%.

As much as it pains me to say, the common knife steel faqs aren't very good if you want real information on knife steels. It's not their fault. The topic can be very complicated, and people spend their entire lives trying to learn about it, so it simply cannot be condensed down into a 2 page chart and published on the internet or in a knife magazine or knifemaking book. Statements from well known authors can be right or wrong or both, depending on the property, amount of element, and heat treatment. The authors know this I'm sure, but they are writing knifemaking material, not metallurgy textbooks. Ok, maybe some don't know, but I can't tell by reading the charts, books, or articles.

PS: Ordering material and getting that material are 2 different things. That's why steel suppliers test their stuff, and why customers test it again. It's also why my company bought a Positive Material Identification machine. Did you know polished and stacked 316, 304, 321, and Inconel sheets look alike?
 
Nonsense. (this being the GF, I'll not use stronger language, though you tempt me sorely.)

When you build a building (or most anything else for that matter) you buy your materials under a contract. The contract specifies the grade of steel you are buying. Break the contract by not delivering the correct alloy and you get sued in court. If the building collapses due to your fraud you are liable for that. If someone gets hurt because of it, you face criminal charges.

You are right I am sorry for that. But I think we all know that before most of us got into steels and knowing different types of steels that there is a difference between steel A vs steel B. Perhaps not to that scale as more diligence is done in selecting the specific grade of steel by name. However for everyday products and I think knife guys do come by this a lot, is we are irritated by the vauge datapoint of stuff like "Stainless Steel" on our scissors or cookware without actually knowing what it's made out of. Especially on knives with "high carbon steel" being super vague like Gerbers. Isn't it a bit dangerous that any company can list their stuff off as stainless or high carbon without actually meeting industry standard and no one able to do doing anything about it?
 
You are right I am sorry for that. But I think we all know that before most of us got into steels and knowing different types of steels that there is a difference between steel A vs steel B. Perhaps not to that scale as more diligence is done in selecting the specific grade of steel by name. However for everyday products and I think knife guys do come by this a lot, is we are irritated by the vauge datapoint of stuff like "Stainless Steel" on our scissors or cookware without actually knowing what it's made out of. Especially on knives with "high carbon steel" being super vague like Gerbers. Isn't it a bit dangerous that any company can list their stuff off as stainless or high carbon without actually meeting industry standard and no one able to do doing anything about it?

If they are unwilling or unable to tell you what their product is, and it is that important to you, don't buy from them. It's that simple.
 
My understanding is that machine steels in the USA generally follow standards set by AISI.

And increasingly, the AISI standards are being used in the UK as well.

Structural steels in the USA generally follow standards set by the ASTM.

In Europe, machine steels follow the DIN standards.
DIN is a non governmental group based in Germany.

The European structural steel standards generally follow the EN 10025-2.

But international standards with respect to steel do vary country to country, so it's often necessary to consult a chart like this:
http://mdmetric.com/tech/ssgradetable.htm
 
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