Is there really a Survival Knife?

Howard Wallace

Howard Wallace

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I use my credit card to survive. But if I lose it I'll revert to using my brain.

There's a lot of discussion on the forums about survival knives. I've been taken to task for saying that a butcher knife is an excellent survival tool. Survival is about facing the unexpected. Some people complain when they're given a survival scenario and can't rely on their favorite prop. "What do you mean I don't have my magnesium fire starter? I ALWAYS have my magnesium fire starter. No Fair!"

The same attitude exists with knives. No doubt many of the knives marketed as high end survival knives are fine pieces of equipment. But the people who buy them with the attitude that the tools have few if any limitations are in for a rude awakening if they ever find themselves living their fantasies. (I am not free of these delusions. I always take long spaghetti camping with me in preference to macaroni. A handful of long spaghetti can be pressed into emergency service as a makeshift piton, whereas macaroni fails dismally at the task.)
wink.gif


Are thousand dollar knives worth the cost? Maybe. They might hold an edge longer, or be harder to break. But they have limitations as any tool does. Anyone who relies on a tool rather than their mind in a survival situation is in bad shape.


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Howard Wallace
Khukuri FAQ

 
Sure there are really survival knives. As you know there are definitely knives that were designed and meant to be used to survive in extreme circumstances. Whether it be urban survival, or survival in the woods, you most definitely will have a much better chance if you have a good knife you can count on.

I believe a survival knife is a knife you could bet your life on. Some of the best I've found (not in order of preference) are:

1. Busse Steel Heart II and Battle Mistress
2. Fallkniven A-1 or F-1
3. SAK Rucksack
4. CS SRK
5. Jone Knives Model 23
6. Livesay RTAK and Air Assault
7. BM AFCK
8. Mora Knives
9. Kit Carson Model 4 Lg. Folders
10. All quality Kukris
11. CRK Sebenzas and fixed blades
12. Randall Made Knives
13. Kabars
14. Ontario Machetes
15. Unlimited number of custom made knives...

My list could go on and on. But the only knives you would find on it would be knives that I could bet my life on, in a survival situation. Those are survival knives.
 
Hansen,

I have knives in six of the categories you list. Multiple knives from some of categories. You have quite a list of good tools.

My point is that it makes sense to understand the limitations of your tools. My father used a Herter's sheath knife through much of his hunting, trapping, timber cruising, and military service. These knives are not sold any more. The closest thing on the market is probably a carbon steel, "Old Hickory," boning knife. I don't know that my dad ever got into a "survival" situation, but I do know that that knife accompanied him timber cruising deep into the forests of the Pacific Northwest.

Many of the trappers and woodsmen I have known and know carry inexpensive knives. They understand what the knives can and cannot do. Although I'm sure they could use my Randall with equal effectiveness, I doubt that it would significantly increase their chances of survival. I harbor no illusion that my expensive knife makes me their equal in the forest.

If you are only willing to bet your life on the performance of knives on your list, what happens when it's time for a high-stakes bet and you don't have one of the knives from your list? You won't give up, will you?

Survival is not something that just comes up for macho adventurers. We all face death, and death will eventually find us all. The unexpected is waiting for each of us, in every environment.

If survival is truly a concern, should not each piece of equipment be considered? I will bet that people are more likely to die from inadequate boots than from an inadequate knife.


[This message has been edited by Howard Wallace (edited 22 October 1999).]
 
Howard,
You are absolutely right. The number 1 best survival tool you have is your brain. I think the best lesson learned about survival with or without knives, is the ability to improvise with whatever is at hand. After your brain, the best tool you would want would be a good knife, no doubt about it. Other tools are very imortant, but if you had to choose just one tool, you better grab that knife - no matter what you want to call it.

However your question was is there a survival knife. I'm sure many folks have died of exposure, with and without knives, but I would rather have a knife than a pair of boots - unless of course if I was deep in snow country. Realize that with a good knife, you can make yourself adequate footwear, in addition to shelter, tools, weapons, etc.

Happy trails...

Romans 6:23

 
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Howard there is a fellow by the name of Tom Brown Jr.who teaches the art of survival with nothing.
In other words you are left high and dry with NO tools of any kind and the clothes on your back.
It comes down to using your brain to survive.
Tom does teach survival skills with what's at hand.A good piece of flint,chert,obsidian,or other rock that will take a conchodial fracture is a big step ahead in the art of survival.
That's the knife you can bet your life on! And it's just as you say,"You have to know the knife's limitations."

The Green River knives and similar could get you a good horse in days gone by.They are basicaly what you are saying,"A good butcher knife."

The Old Hickory brand was about the most I could afford when I was a kid.
I had to replace some of mom's because I broke a few in learning what I could and couldn't do with them.
I carved many a bow with a butcher knife.They have certain advantages over the big ones like the Khuks and the Busse basic 9 I have.

It's kind of like comparing all the ones that Jeff Randall takes to the Jungles and the Indigs use of the Machete.In my opinion the best survival knife anyone can own is the one they pick up to use everyday,The one they are most familiar with.

Snickersnee has a good idea about knives that way,even though I want more than just two knives.(VBESEG)
smile.gif


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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

If you mix milk of magnesia with vodka and orange juice do you get a phillips screwdriver?

Khukuri FAQ


 
I look at it like this. Knives are like cars,a great car can allow a skilled driver to perform better but a poor driver will still perform poorly no matter what he drives. Likewise an individual who`s a skilled outdoorsman can get by with a cheap knife just fine. A better knife will make things perhaps a bit easier but isn`t really necessary. Some bozo who doesn`t know his --- from a hole in the ground can have the greatest survival knife known to man and still won`t save his bacon for him. Marcus
 
Ditto everyone -- most sensible "survival" thread so far! Brain precedes knife, and knowledge of its limits precedes its use. W/o this, as Marcus notes concisely, a Busse light saber won't save Bozo.
 
survival knife? more often than not the knife will survive, but will the owner? that’s up to the owner.
Think of it this way, most knives outlive there owners, not the other way around.
-matt
 
Attitude and Intellect. OOPS...AI artificial intelligence.

Sorry I could not resist.

Your attitude + intellect = survival

The tools that you can make not just what you carry with you. Sharp rocks,clubs,fire bow and fire hardened spears. Knowledge is power. Any pre-made articles that are germaine to your needs just make the trek easier.

Cheers,

ts

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Guns are for show. Knifes are for Pros.
 
To me survival knives are a genre. When I tell you i have found a good survival knife I mean that I have found a good example of the type.

The concept of a particular knife as a tool idealy suitable for survival is something I don't understand.

1) In order for a "survival" tool to be of use it must be available at time of crisis. If I carry a tool with me I do so because I can anticipate its usefulness; so, if I have a survival knife with me I must have identified a potential for a crisis. So why didn't I take steps to avoid the crisis?

2) We are told that our survival knife must be versatile. It must enable us to take on an unsxpected challenge. Yet, if we are personally taking on all unexpoected challanges with our tool what are the other folks doing?

If we find ourselves in a crisis we are very likely to do so with our family, friends, and neighbors. I have no desire to become a recluse. Nor, do I plan to survive ala Robinson Crusoe. My first course of action would be to reestablished and regenerate the community. Clearly my knife would only be one of many different types of tools available to the community.


I have a large collection of survival knives and I believe that many of them are excellent and interesting knives. But, when it comes to survival I would rather avoid putting myself into a desparate situation; and, if I do find myself in such a crisis, I intend to rely on all available tools, and not just my knife.



[This message has been edited by not2sharp (edited 22 October 1999).]
 
You know, not only is yer brain the most important item in inventory for a survival situation, but it is also about the most important tool in a defensive type situation. I feel far too many people (and dare I say on this forum) feel that if they have the latest double-edge-out-the-front-wonder-talon, that they can strut through the worst parts of town without so much as feeling a hint of fear. Probably, these same people walk through said neighborhood with a chip on their shoulder reversely proportional to the size of their gray matter in their 'nogen. A knife shouldn't give you big cajones, but help keep them in their relative position on your body! Survival is indeed a multi faceted skill, be it in the middle of the Yukon in January in a plane going down, a leisurely stroll through Cabrini Green at three a.m., or taking a shower while reaching for the volume control on the radio. This is why we have a brain and should endevour to perhaps be a little more "lazy"...to AVOID a situation is usually MUCH easier then trying to extricate ourselves out of said situation. Also, looking at the current maker vs. maker spiel going on, when you look at what any well made knife can do, it will usually excede our capability of surviving the situation. If I find myself in sewage/saltwater immersion/toxic environments/combat zone, the last thing I could possibly worry about is if the tang of my knife is "vapor resistant", as the rest of my human anatomy won't be, resulting in human tang failure, to say the least!
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Just my three cents worth for the moment. Use yer head, as it will never fall out of your sheath and leave you toolless.

Take care,
John Johnson

If guns are banned, can I use a sword?
 
Hmmmmmmmm!! Has anyone ever made or seen a smatchet made with an integral hollow handle that has a sealed removable cap??? Would that be concidered a survival knife??

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
L6steel,

I have not seen any large blade(Shortsword/bolo)done this way. It would weaken the tool. I think you would be better served by adding pouches to the outside of the scabbard for your essentials. There is a large footprint for this. I have a scabbard done this way and carry much more than in the hollow handle.

Cheers,

ts

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Guns are for show. Knifes are for Pros.
 
The answer is yes.

It's made by Victorionox.
smile.gif


It's the thinking man's survival knife.

I think I will go buy another one.

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Hoodoo

Cogita tute
 
Hi Howard,
I think your assessment of survival is correct. The tools can help make some things easier, but it is the gray matter between the ears that will put the tools to use. Your mentioning of your father's Herter's knife sure brought back memories. As a kid I would pour over the Herter's catalog drooling over the knifes and guns. The Herter family's stories about how they used the items in their catalog kept me going back to the catalog over and over. My father has a Herter's knife, too. It is his tool of choice and he has had it at least 40 years. I don't claim to know what knives are the best, but I do know that a good knife is a tool no one should be without.

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Very interesting responses. I love the succinct summaries in some of the posts. I wanted to respond to a few posts in particular.

Yvsa,

I've read most if not all of Tom Brown's books. His survival techniques are very interesting. I learnt a lot of this stuff before Tom Brown started publishing, from Larry Dean Olsen's "Outdoor Survival Skills." It seems clear that Tom Brown is an advocate of the philosophy endorsed by most of the posters in this thread. What do you think of Tom Brown's more philosophically oriented books? Do his perceptions of Indians and portrayal of Indian philosophies seem accurate to you?

John Johnson,

I agree. Survival encompasses defensive use. The mind is critical there also. A pocket clip might decrease the time of deployment from 8 to 1.5 seconds. Does it really matter if you can shave an additional .1 second off the deployment time by the choice of tip-up vs. tip down? Especially when you can probably shave 3 or 4 minutes off the deployment time by development of awareness. Greater awareness will enable you to have a knife in hand when needed. Or to have made the appropriate choices to head off the confrontation before a fast-as-you-can draw becomes necessary. It is clear where the greatest benefit for the effort expended can be gained. But we always seem to be discussing that last .1 s, or whether the commando knife can survive immersion in flaming toxic radioactive waste without rusting.

I just saw a Zatoichi movie last night. Zatoichi is a blind swordsman who is an expert with his sword cane. He can draw his sword and dispatch 5 bad guys in the blink of an eye. They usually stand there for a few seconds before they realize they're dead and all fall over together. It's great fantasy a la Clint Eastwood. But I try not to get it confused with reality.

Wild Bill,

Welcome to the forums. I spent hours looking at those catalogs too.


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Howard Wallace
Khukuri FAQ



[This message has been edited by Howard Wallace (edited 24 October 1999).]
 
Hello Hoodoo,

I like you handle ! Does is stand for something in particular ??

Hoodoo states the following:

_______________________________________

The answer is yes.
It's made by Victorionox.
It's the thinking man's survival knife.
I think I will go buy another one.

_______________________________________


Which particular "Victorinox" are you referring too ??

Why do you consider it the "thinking man's" survival knife ??

Regards,

xxxx
 
Marion,

Thanks for bringing this issue back up 'cause I see someone posted a question to me that I never answered.

xxxx,

Hoodoo's are unusual fantastic rock formations like the ones you see in old timey cowboy movies.

Now, about that survival knife issue. Boy, was my previous answer flippant or what?

I guess I still believe that if I had a choice of one "knife" for survival, it would be an SAK multitool or something similar. But I don't think that answer really addesses the original question.

As for Howard's original post, on one level I think I agree with him. Growing up on a farm where butchering animals was a routine thing, I can tell you we wore out a few of old hickories. But boy could they make cracklins'. But for most of the work around the farm, a Case stockman was the ticket. But I suppose farm work and survival work are not really that comparable.

This has been said before, but again, the issue of survival knife begs the question: just what are you surviving? Where are you surviving? An old hickory would not be the knife I would use for prying or heavy chopping. Is that important? I dunno 'cause I don't know what it is I'm supposed to be surviving. If it's short term survival in the wilderness, I suspect a good butcher knife would get the job done. If I have to survive longer-say for a whole season, I would want a nice axe or similar utensil.

Tom Brown and others have shown that all you need to survive in wilderness is what is at hand. So if you really know what you are doing, you don't need any knife and the question of survival knive becomes a moot point. I think the question is, if we have a choice, what would we choose and why?

Maybe we should break it down into elements.

Given that you have a choice of a single knife, what traits do you consider essential in a "survival knife"? And here you might also want to specify conditions. Are you talking about wilderness survival (say your canoe was destroyed in a wilderness area (jungle or northwoods) and all you have is your knife and the clothes on your back and maybe a few other gadgets or maybe not), military survival (your plane was destroyed and you parachuted to safety behind the lines (europe or asia?)), or anarchy has just broken out in the streets and it's every cowboy for themselves.

Is there a one knife do it all here or not? I suspect not but is there anything that would come close or do we need to tailor our thinking to specifics?

I guess if I was going to pick a single overriding trait for a "survival" knife, it would have to be durability. I want a survival knife that will, itself, survive.


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Hoodoo

No, I do not weep at the world--I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.
Zora Neale Hurston

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Lao Tsu
 
In my opinion, the best tools are not physical in the sence. The two are your will to survive and the ability to keep it together(you start going crazy when you survive not when you are trying). I experienced this for almost 3 months in the jungles of Viet Nam as an escaped POW. All i had to survive was the two mentioned above and a shovel and i am being literal; i didnt even have clothes. Your will to survive makes you do many things you wouldnt normally do such as club an ox to death with a blunt shovel only to eat it raw. I dont think any thousand dollar knife would have helped me much in my situation, not to say that they would in other sircumstances.

have a nice day
smile.gif


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Hey! Lay off my Hosey COW!!!
 
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