Is there such a thing as a historical ninjato?

S

Skytorn

Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
110
I was always under the impression that there existed a sword in historical Japan called the ninjato.

It is carried by ninja on the back rather than at the hip like samurai blades, was shorter & straight compared to katana and were of vastly inferior quality in terms of workmanship and such. It was a gritty, thuggy type of weapon that reflected the ignoble origins and purposes of the historical ninja.

When I was talking to a bunch of people over at Cold Steel's forums though the consensus they had was that no such sword exists in actual history, that it was an invention of early Japanese Cinema and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

So I was hoping that one of you fellows could put the debate to rest. Some definitive research, from a proper historian, would definitely be nice.

Thanks!
 
Perhaps you should try to prove it DID exist. I've heard from many sources that it did not exist. Remember ninjas were really a subdivision of samurais and not a poor peasant class at all.
 
They were the equivalent of Special Forces today. Their gear might have been tailored to a slightly different set of tasks (reconnaissance for instance) but, as mentioned above, they were samurai, and the katana was a badge of distinction that marked that status, and was a matter of pride.

The straight-bladed chisel-tipped style of sword is known as a chokuto and would have been a museum-quality antique even in the days of the ninja. We're talking mega old here. An example can be seen on the right of this image.

shape.jpg


A blade in excavated conditionis seen in the bottom of this picture.
chokuto2.jpg
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
They were the equivalent of Special Forces today.
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Ehh...not quite. More the equivalent of specialists or technicians. But I'm quibbling.

The existence of ninja is so overblown today that, had you the power to go back to old Japan and asked, they'd probably have no clear idea what you trying to describe.

Remember too that katana were relatively uncommon in the hands of samurai, who--like most infantry-oriented militaries--premodinantly used spears.
 
Watchful said:
Ehh...not quite. More the equivalent of specialists or technicians. But I'm quibbling.

The existence of ninja is so overblown today that, had you the power to go back to old Japan and asked, they'd probably have no clear idea what you trying to describe.

Remember too that katana were relatively uncommon in the hands of samurai, who--like most infantry-oriented militaries--premodinantly used spears.
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To be a quibbler in return, they were quite common--just not the primary battlefield weapon. Not all soldiers were samurai--far from it, in fact. Just as few western soldiers were knights. ;):p

As a note, I use the term "special forces" simply because it's the easiest for the average individual to relate to in terms of general military classifications. :)
 
The is NO historical evidence that Ninja used swords any different from the samurai. Most were stolen or pickups. Probably mostly wakizashi, but nothing like the "ninjato" of Hollywood fiction. Ninja were nothing like modern special forces, they were basically political assassins for hire.

Rich
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
NKCA Life Member

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
-------------------------------------------------------
 
Rich S said:
The is NO historical evidence that Ninja used swords any different from the samurai. Most were stolen or pickups. Probably mostly wakizashi, but nothing like the "ninjato" of Hollywood fiction. Ninja were nothing like modern special forces, they were basically political assassins for hire.

Rich
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
NKCA Life Member

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
-------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...

Given that ninja were of the samurai caste, why in the world would they need to steal swords?:confused:

Oh well...I think I'm gonna' duck on out of here before this all starts going downhill...
 
Ninja were not of the samurai class, at least not most of them. They were private "clans" for lack of a better phrase. Hired by the samurai warlords to do their dirty work.

Rich
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
NKCA Life Member

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
-------------------------------------------------------
 
Rich S said:
Ninja were not of the samurai class, at least not most of them. They were private "clans" for lack of a better phrase. Hired by the samurai warlords to do their dirty work.
Click to expand...
Any evidence of this that precedes, say, 1960? Most of "official Ninja history" is complete fiction, written in the 20th Century. The idea of clans and villages and secret training centers, etc., etc., is a total canard.

The legitimate history of ninjitsu is so historically uninteresting that even its modern day fans continue to cover it up with tales and legends.

By the way, I don't think you're wrong. I just don't think the term ninja applies to those guys; it was added much later. Much later.
 
Tabi, I think. They were common to wear as slippers, and I think people wear them today as such; they were hardly "ninja" wear.
 
Insomniac1122 said:
shut up about ninja...bloody mallninjas
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Now you've done it. The ninja are going to come and flip out all over you. Don't mess with the ninja. I did once. Fortunately they left me with one finger and one eye so I could type this message.
 
Watchful said:
Tabi, I think. They were common to wear as slippers, and I think people wear them today as such; they were hardly "ninja" wear.
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Tabi are quite correct throughout the culture. Your assertion doesn't seem to ring true, as ninja were (after all) just like anyone else. Not slippers so much as just fitted socks for sandals. Tabi to keep the floor clean as well. Help to contain debris left from the dust mites. Another form of ninja toe can also occur just as the camel does:p (when the package becomes more apparent on one side or the other of the inseam).

Cheers

GC
 
Rich S said:
Ninja were not of the samurai class, at least not most of them. They were private "clans" for lack of a better phrase. Hired by the samurai warlords to do their dirty work.
Click to expand...

The people often referred to as ninja were mainly the samurai or Iga and Koga.
 
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