Is there utility to suffering?

T

TomFetter

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Dec 6, 2004
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As it's Lent, I've ben thinking a bit 'bout this. Does suffering have a purpose?

Some will argue that unnecessary suffering should be avoided. That, for instance, since polio vaccines exist, they should be used and the pain of a lifelong polio disability given a miss. I agree.

And I agree that pain (emotional, physical, whatever) can be a great motivator for change – when it’s not so enormous to overwhelm one’s capacity to act.

From my perspective, the perspective that we’re spiritual beings having a physical experience, it’s instructive to think about what purpose the physical experience is intended to have. What are we, so to speak, supposed to walk away with, when it’s done?

In the presence of God, I think we’ve precious little choice about our actions or attitudes. When the air pulses with life, you live. So if one wants to develop a bit of that capacity oneself … to become, in the words of the snake in the Genesis story “like God,” you have to be in a place where there’s a real option to NOT be loving, nor compassionate, nor tolerant. To not view justice through the eyes of love. The existence of evil is what provides the choice. Without it, there’s no free will.

So if God’s project is to provide opportunities for us to develop in love and compassion, that can only happen where there’s the real risk that we will do the opposite. It’s by choosing that we make, and re-make ourselves. Suffering is necessary both as a consequence of choice and a prompter of choice … and as means to test our resolve in our choices. Can’t remember who said that you only know whether you hold a principle when it becomes inconvenient.

If we’re NOT spiritual beings having a physical experience, then suffering is purely something to minimize. But if this life is an opportunity for immersion training … it’s the fundamental training modality.

What do you think?

t.
 
If we’re NOT spiritual beings having a physical experience, then suffering is purely something to minimize. But if this life is an opportunity for immersion training … it’s the fundamental training modality" Tom

You mean if we die and there's nothing after death we should minimize suffering because there is no purpose in further moral growth?



munk
 
Me too Tom! I stared to write something but I have too many things going on here to put any real thought into it.
 
Briefly, I believe there is utility in recognizing the universality of suffering, in accepting that suffering is something we will all experience at some point, in developing the mental/spiritual perspective to move on with life's tasks and maintain a sense of humor in the face of suffering, and in seeking to minimize/ease the needless suffering of others.

Eric

Sometimes suffering can lead one to a greater sense of gratitude.
 
Suffering is an experiance, we are what our experiances make us. While it is not somthing to be relished neither is it somthing to be avoided at all costs. I've spent my whole life stuggling with the question of spirituality, just last year I came to the conclusion that if I live my life with love, generosity, and humility it doesnt matter if there is an afterlife/reincarnation/etc. or not. If there is I will be rewarded for living a good life if not I'll still have had a good life and be proud off who I was. I think moral growth is worthwhile in its own right and comes with its own reward, anything else is just gravy.
 
We have a saying at work: "Stupidity ought to hurt."

Superficially it's a joke made at the expense of those who make mistakes. Fundamentally, it's a reminder that the lessons learned best are the ones that sting the most. Any of us who have ever stuck the fork in the electrical outlet or grabbed the handle on the pot of boiling water as children (despite being told numerous times not to) never did it a second time. Likewise, as adults who routinely handle sharp objects, there are two groups of us: those who tape edges while working on other parts of the knife, and those that will. It would be nice if we can learn through positive experiences but it's the negative ones that I remember best. I suspect that most of us are the same way.

The reason that I bring this up is that a lot of our suffering is self-inflicted, whether or not we immediately realize it. When our mistakes hurt and we learn from them, this suffering is hardly pointless -- it's one of the greatest learning tools we have.

The problem is when we cause ourselves to suffer and refuse to change our behavior. I deal with a somewhat extreme example of this daily. This is indeed pointless from my perspective.

What about suffering caused by events truly beyond our control? It can have utility or it can be meaningless, depending on what you do with it. Did you learn something? Did it improve you in the end? Or did it simply embitter you?

It is what it is. Like most things in life, it's how the person plays the cards dealt to them that determines their worth. Not everyone gets a good hand, but a bad hand doesn't excuse someone from their responsibility for their actions.
 
Look at from the other side ...suffering is an outcome, that outcome is derived by an effect the effect of and caused by desire, desire is determined and given power and that determination and power is a result of applied value.

In our temple we have a saying "value is determined by the effort to obtain and retain"
 
Sometimes in the mist of the suffering, we can't see the reason for it. But later when we step back and look at it objectively we can see that it was for a reason. Whether we deserved it or just needed to learn something doesn't really matter. What really matters is what we do with what we learned from it.

For all you young ones out there, know that the decisions you make will affect you for the rest of your lives. Some are good, some not, but they will be part of the big pie for the rest of your life. We all make goof ups.........some more regularily than others........but all of us do it. No one is perfect. Don't kick yourself over and over but learn, and forgive yourself, and move on.

Life is a tapestry. Sometimes when we're weaving we like what we see, sometimes we have to rip it out and start over and sometimes we get done and someone or something tears holes in it. Then we mend, and although the scar can be seen, it's just as functional as new. In fact, often times the mended part is stronger than the original.

So suffering has it's place and I would not trade any of my suffering for a life of luxury knowing that without trials we are weak and probably trite. Suffering is what gives us character.
 
The really ugly nub of the question comes up with the suffering of innocents. A friend's wife is chaplain in a paediatric ward - and the stories of the suffering of babies, or kids who've been in dreadful accidents ... would make your toes curl.

I agree that suffering is a great teacher, particularly when the suffering's self-inflicted. It's much harder to understand the suffering of innocents.
 
Tom, I think suffering brought by sources outside the individual are as great, if not greater teachers than the self inflicted kind of suffering; if you want to draw a distinction, that is.


munk
 
munk said:
Tom, I think suffering brought by sources outside the individual are as great, if not greater teachers than the self inflicted kind of suffering; if you want to draw a distinction, that is.
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They sure bring the questions right to the front burner.

Sometimes, the suffering of an innocent can be the occasion for learning for someone else. Certainly, when I volunteered with mentally disabled adults, we found that inevitably they were our greatest teachers. But would I willingly choose to live with that disability?

Not me. I'm too much of a weenie ... not spiritually strong enough yet to willingly suffer as much as that, for someone else's potential benefit. But it was an enormous gift.
 
Witnessing the suffering of children and other innocents gives us the opportunity to expand our capacity for empathy, caring, compassion, generosity, selflessness - love. I think of Mother Teresa and her work.

Eric
 
I'm reminded of the adultswim bump showing a deer head tagged onto a darkened alley way, with the words "When did you stop remembering?" underneath it.

Pain serves many purposes. For those who can keep the experiences of their lives in perspective, and apply the various lessons they gather as they live to current and upcoming situations, pain is something you gather on the way. But for those who forget, for those who live in the moment so often and so much that they lose perspective on the idea of suffering and the deep impact it can have on the human spirit, and how it can act as the very source of someones actions: it is important that they have a place and time to experience contrast, to remember what its like, preferably without having to permenantly damage themselves, or their situations in life.


Pain is something to minimize, but it's not something to forget.
 
Dave Rishar said:
Not everyone gets a good hand.
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That is probably very true, but there are times when I wonder if everyone doesn't get roughly the same hand. There are bums living happily in squalor and millionaires blowing their heads off, so it is pretty hard to define what a good hand is. Regardless of health, wealth, status or the lack of it - some days are good, some great, some bad and some terrible.
 
TomFetter said:
The really ugly nub of the question comes up with the suffering of innocents. A friend's wife is chaplain in a paediatric ward - and the stories of the suffering of babies, or kids who've been in dreadful accidents ... would make your toes curl.

I agree that suffering is a great teacher, particularly when the suffering's self-inflicted. It's much harder to understand the suffering of innocents.
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Being a materialist (in the philosophical/teleological sense and not the popular consumerist sense necessarily) I think that although we can use our own suffering as an inspiration to lessen it for ourselves and others, it is not there just for us to learn from. We try to make sense and assign meaning to the chaos of nature. Sadly, bad things can happen regardless of whether we can find any good in them or not.
 
i was a philosophy major in a college full of atheists and liberals. we were discussing a book in class titled "In Search of God" and i got a lot of hate for my relatively conservative views. the same week we were reading the chapter on evil in the world, the tsunami hit asia. everyone used that as ammo. i maintained that evil and suffering were two completely distinct things. evil is in the heart of man. no bullet, storm, animal, or disease is evil. conscious, malevolent intent is evil. suffering is part of nature. it's an important sense that keeps the world turning. it's a warning, a teacher, a guide for action and survival. it plays a basic role in an organism, ignoring the strength it adds to the soul of a person.

of course suffering also builds character. what's the difference between the outraged suit on line at startbucks who's sick of waiting after 30 seconds and the veiny armed laborer with sunburn who'll wait patiently for 20 minutes for a burger? suffering. one of them realizes that it's nothing. i was painting a fence a few months ago and discussing the value of suffering. by coincidence a few hours later some boys in their 'crew' were walking by and i heard one of them yell "you gonna hit me an' it aint gonna hurt cuz i been hit nigga!" vulgar wisdom. can't deny he was well informed. sidenote, i don't feel vulgarity is evil either. low class, yeah, but evil, no. the whole 'high class' deal may be evil, though, if one considers it a form of segregation, as i do. back to the topic.

I also have a very dear friend, the suffering innocent. just dealt a bad hand, whole life ruined, dreams crushed, did absolutely nothing wrong. an upstanding, beautiful, intelligent, hard worker with what was a bright future. i know it always hurts but she acts like it doesn't and no one deserves it less. i've shared my suffering dialog with her as well and it's analogous to a trial. the better she handles it and the more she endures the more she proves she doesn't deserve it. it strengthens her and the stronger she becomes the less of a burden it is. this increases her worth. the cantina doesn't need me to go on discourse about the bastardization of the term 'worth' in modern culture, we're all aware of that.

i probably said somethin i didn't want to in all this. having trouble focusing lately.
 
Eric006 said:
Witnessing the suffering of children and other innocents gives us the opportunity to expand our capacity for empathy, caring, compassion, generosity, selflessness - love. I think of Mother Teresa and her work.

Eric
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This I agree with. But more than witnessing the suffering, without having suffered to some degree ourselves, the suffering of others is merely theoretical... if we haven't felt the pain, it doesn't really exist for us.

I don't believe suffering can enhance spirituality.. it CAN, IMO, enhance the ability to be a good human being.

Andy
 
C.S. Graves said:
Being a materialist (in the philosophical/teleological sense and not the popular consumerist sense necessarily) I think that although we can use our own suffering as an inspiration to lessen it for ourselves and others, it is not there just for us to learn from. We try to make sense and assign meaning to the chaos of nature. Sadly, bad things can happen regardless of whether we can find any good in them or not.
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I agree with this also. There isn't always "meaning" to be had.

Andy
 
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