Is this normal?

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

Joined
Sep 28, 2005
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I recently got my first congress, and without ever holding another I was wondering if the gap between bolster and blade alignment in the open position is normal for a reverse held whittler like the congress. It is a new Boker, and I love the jigging (possibly my favorite in my collection) and color on the scales. I wish the blade shapes were all different, but may change this myself. I am carrying it on and off in order to get to know it better.
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Thanks all.
 

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I see many production knives with this trait, both new and old. Bernard Levine refers to this condition as "underbladed".

It is not necessarily seen as a flaw.
 
Unfortunately, it's normal for modern production congress knives -- which is why I don't like modern congress knives. I could maybe live with the underbladed aspect (but still not like it), but the canted up blades really tick me off.

This whole "underbladed" thing has been batted around, but it's not something you could prove by my collected antique knives -- I have maybe a small handful that could be said to be underbladed, all whittlers IIRC, but it's rare even with them. None of the rest have this -- especially none of the old congress knives (of which I have a lot). And they don't have the canted up blades. In fact, if you open all the blades of a really old congress, and lay it on it's back, the blade backs are typically the first things that come in contact with the table.
 
I can't remember ever seeing one that bad...it wouldn't work for me.

See similar discretion under the Ryu thread started a few days ago
 
That's pretty extreme to my eye, but if the blade still holds in the open position with no play, and the spring is strong, it shouldn't be an issue. A bigger issue for me is how well the blade lines up with the centerline of the handle when open; in other words, how far the blade or blades dip downward when the handle is held straight.

I've owned a whole group of slipjoints and lockbacks that, in the open position, are both 'underbladed' and I guess what would be the opposite, 'overbladed'. I'm more into the functionality of a particular knife, so this detail normally doesn't bother me. My son has a Camillus Scout knife that is extremely 'underbladed' but still very strong. I'll post up a pic later.

~Chris
 
I don't mind uniform under-blading, but that one looks a little severe. If the other blades match it usually doesn't bother me though.
 
That degree of under-blading should not be considered "normal". Let's try to insist on at least a reasonable level of fit and finish in the Traditional knives we buy in an attempt to stem the decline. If we accept a 'huge' step like shown in OP, then why should manufacturers try to make it any better ?
I recently posted 4 Congress knives: post # 361 http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/582468-Rough-Rider-amp-Related-Slipjoints/page32
I'm away from my knives or i would post pics of the blade spine/spring alignment on these 4 knives. I did look at this as i opened them up for the pics and there was only very slight under-blading, almost even. Note also that in 2 of these knives, no 2 blades are the same. A full size Spearpoint and a full size Sheepsfoot makes more sense for those of us who do not cut plugs of tobacco off bales, than 2 Sheepsfoot blades.
(well maybe unless you are a shepherd too)
roland
 
Definitely NOT acceptable. The underblading is excessive (even by modern standards) but the worst is the fact that the blade is 12 to 15 degrees short of fully open. Any pressure on the tip of this blade when open is going to close it suddenly on your fingers.

SEND IT BACK !!
 
I think the difference with Ryu's knives and many productions is that Ryu under-blades his on purpose (his style I guess). I know this was seen a lot on older knives, but on current production models, I think it's sloppiness (my opinion of course). I mean...if you are talking about the spine being just a wee-hair lower than the spring, that's one thing and I can deal with that on a production. But on that congress....it doesn't even look like the blade was made for that knife. Just way off to me, and as a connoisseur (for lack of a better word) of knives, that would bug the hell out of me.

My first question is whether that is the only blade that sits low, or are the other underbladed as well? I looked around and found some pics of a similar knife online (Boker Plus Congress?) and those pics show at least a couple of the blades matching up nicely with the springs just fine, which leads me to believe yours is a defect.
 
My understanding of the vintage Sheffield slight under-blading is that it has to do with the blade tangs being hardened to a greater degree than the springs. With much use the lower corner of the spring can become worn down causing the spring to sit a bit lower with blade in the open position.
If initially made so that blade spine/spring junction is even, then with time the run-up of the tang will be above it's spring.
When backward pressure is applied to the blade (as in forceful cutting) the majority of the force is at the top of the run-up that now no longer impinges on it's spring. With extreme wear the blade tang could force the spring downwards under the back square of the tang allowing the blade to greatly hyper-extend.
The blade spine/spring junction is equally strong whether flush or slightly under bladed, hence there is no downside to slight under blading, and the upside is that this joint will remain strong even when spring end gets worn.
I just made that up, so i don't know if it's right or righteous BS !
Knifemaker needed to verify or Japanese translator to send it to Ryu for comment.
roland
 
Thank you for all of the replies, I did not mean to go this long without replying. All of the blades are the same in regards to underblading. All of the springs are tight, which is why I wasn't sure of the level of dysfunction that is acceptable. I actually bought a slipjoint recently that has the mushroomed springs like was mentioned. It could have used some underblading as now it has play when open (another thread I meant to start), which is sad as it us a nice 2 blade with punch. But I bought it to repair anyways.

It has been too long to go back to the vendor (a good guy here), so I'll have to find Boker's contact info and see if they will accept a return.

Thank you for all of the replies
 
I asked Ken Erickson to comment on what i wrote. His thinking is that under-blading is simply from using the same blades for multiple patterns. However in the "Sheffield" thread, Mick stated that an old Sheffield cutler gave him an explanation basically the same as i tried to explain.
With the OP knife it surely is due to "multiple uses". There simply was no attempt at specific fit for this frame.
roland
 
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