It’ll shave, but not slice paper well…

F

fishinfs

Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
142
I have an old Western 6504, made in Boulder. It will shave hair, but I have the dickens of a time getting it to push cut newspaper. Any thoughts why?

I generally freehand sharpen on a handheld diamond stone.

Related - some newspaper seems to much easier to slice (with any knife) than other paper. Anything in that, or is it my imagination?
 
fishinfs said:
some newspaper seems to much easier to slice (with any knife) than other paper. Anything in that, or is it my imagination?
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It's normal. Different paper varies in how easy it is to get a clean cut.

Other things can affect how easy it is to cut too, like if it has wrinkles or creases, the direction of the grain, or whether it is slightly damp or loaded with oil from your hands.
 
Angle is my bet. I can sharpen all my knives to shave easily, blowing hair off my arm. But my knife at 50 degrees while shaving (keen) absolutely sucks at push cutting or slicing paper. But my knives at 30 degrees when shaving will push cut paper easily.
 
Keeness is different than sharpness. You need an apex of around .1 micron to shave, angles not that critical but cutting paper the sharpness of the smaller angle makes a big deal. Have you checked out the info over at "science of Sharp" website?
 
If your old Western is as thickly ground as mine was - an L48A fixed blade, around 1970 vintage or so - I'd also bet edge angle might be an issue. It was very thick behind the edge from the factory and I had to do a LOT of thinning behind the edge before it finally started cutting well. FWIW, thinning the grind behind the edge has turned out to be an almost universal fix for improving cutting performance in all of my knives.

Might also be some issues with heat-damaged or unstable steel near the edge, causing burrs/wire edges that may not be getting completely cleaned up. I also dealt with some of that on mine.
 
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Newsprint is also directional, if you didn't already know.

I use it regularly, lights the bbq, reveals burs, provides a strop.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
If your old Western is as thickly ground as mine was (an L48A fixed blade, around 1970 vintage or so), I'd also bet edge angle might be an issue. It was very thick behind the edge from the factory and I had to do a LOT of thinning behind the edge before it finally started cutting well.

Might also be some issues with heat damaged or unstable steel near the edge, causing burrs/wire edges that may not be getting completely cleaned up. I also dealt with some of that on mine.
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Mine was also very thick behind the edge, I suspect this could be the reason for the OPs concern.
 
can you cut paper with other knives? Like anything else, there is a technique to cutting paper.
 
Thanks to all of you for your insights. Yes, I can cut paper with other knives.

I think there’s something to the notion that the blade is a bit thick behind the edge. My old Schrades and Camillus seem to slide thru paper easier; maybe the grinds?

I generally strop, so hopefully not the burr.

I agree that paper quality, condition, and orientation come into play. I normally am trying to push cut at 90 degrees.

The experiment continues….
 
What's your final grit on the stones? Course edges slice paper fine, but it's a noisy cut compared to a more refined edge.
 
Fine DMT diamond stone, whatever that works out to.

I putzed with it a bit more - honed and stropped - and it slid through an ALDI receipt no problem at 90 degrees. But maybe it’s just the paper quality 😮

I think my sharpening skills are pretty decent - been doing this for a while now - but when it comes to getting an edge that I’m totally happy with, I feel like I’m chasing a unicorn.

I think I know why ‘Obsessed with Edges’ picked his moniker…
 
fishinfs said:
I putzed with it a bit more - honed and stropped - and it slid through an ALDI receipt no problem at 90 degrees. But maybe it’s just the paper quality 😮
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I find that receipts from different places vary a lot in terms of how easy they are to get a clean cut with because they don't all use the same paper to print their receipts on. I have my own preferences for which receipts I like to use.

fishinfs said:
when it comes to getting an edge that I’m totally happy with, I feel like I’m chasing a unicorn.
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Chase the unicorn. It helps you learn. But at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is if the knife does the job you want to use it for. Does it cut? Okay then that's good enough. You can be happy with that. It's fine.

I personally get annoyed with people who take it too far.
 
fishinfs said:
Fine DMT diamond stone, whatever that works out to.

I putzed with it a bit more - honed and stropped - and it slid through an ALDI receipt no problem at 90 degrees. But maybe it’s just the paper quality 😮

I think my sharpening skills are pretty decent - been doing this for a while now - but when it comes to getting an edge that I’m totally happy with, I feel like I’m chasing a unicorn.

I think I know why ‘Obsessed with Edges’ picked his moniker…
Click to expand...
Still makes me feel silly. When I originally signed up on BF 15 years ago, I was obsessing quite a bit over these things. I was using guided systems to sharpen my knives at that time and the results were better than anything I'd been able to do up to that point. So it spurred me onward, to learn more. And the moniker I chose when I signed up was the first thing coming to mind, and I even chuckled at it then. Obsessed or not, learning is what it's all about as far as I'm concerned. Just keep learning new things, even if later you decide you don't need to use all of them.

I'm more satisfied these days with a 'simpler is better' approach to sharpening and everything is freehand now. I try to do all I can on essentially one stone, instead of a deep progression of stones. And getting the most out of whichever single stone I'm using at the time is my priority now. Not quite so obsessed about perfect bevels, high polish or hair-whittling sharpness anymore. Instead, making an edge cut very well and consistently for the tasks I'm actually doing on a daily basis is what keeps me happy. And it brings great peace of mind, because I now know I CAN actually do these things to some degree of satisfaction, without overcomplicating things or thinking too much about it.
 
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Chase the unicorn. It helps you learn. But at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is if the knife does the job you want to use it for. Does it cut? Okay then that's good enough. You can be happy with that. It's fine.
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Different strokes for different folks (no pun intended). For me, it's both things. There's practical sharpening -- think kitchen knives -- where I want it to be sharp, but it doesn't have to split atoms. And then there's a separate thing, which is the "sport" of trying to get a knife as sharp as humanly possible, which I enjoy for its own sake.
 
Blade Lab said:
Sometimes it really is the steel.
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Yes! Like for example, I just got this cheap chineseum(™️) knife. It raises a giant burr way too easily, and it has this one specific spot along the edge which is always way worse than the rest of the edge no matter what I do.

Based on stuff I learned from this forum, it's either a bad heat treat or a heat treat which was ruined during the grinding process. The only thing I can do is keep sharpening it and hope to eventually reach some good steel once all the bad steel on top of it is removed.

But... it still cuts. I think I got lucky in this instance. The edge doesn't collapse immediately. I do still have to baby it though, and I especially have to pay attention to that one troublesome spot. And if anything, because it raises a burr so easily, it's good practice for burr removal.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Obsessed or not, learning is what it's all about as far as I'm concerned. Just keep learning new things, even if later you decide you don't need to use all of them.

I'm more satisfied these days with a 'simpler is better' approach to sharpening and everything is freehand now. I try to do all I can on essentially one stone, instead of a deep progression of stones. And getting the most out of whichever single stone I'm using at the time is my priority now. Not quite so obsessed about perfect bevels, high polish or hair-whittling sharpness anymore. Instead, making an edge cut very well and consistently for the tasks I'm actually doing on a daily basis is what keeps me happy.
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Damn, are you by any chance a mind reader?
I was doing my workouts and trying to form my next post in my head. Now I was about to write it and then I saw your post.
Not all words exactly the same but.... just unbelievable.

Yes, the beauty is in simplicity.
 
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