"It's good steel with the right HT...."

WillB

WillB

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Feb 3, 2007
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497
See that statement about X steel all the time, but does it apply to all typical steels used to make knives or are some steels more dependent on HT than others to perform as intended/desired?

If the latter, and it simply applies more or less equally to all knife steel, why keep saying if it comes under the "goes without saying" category?

If the former, which knife steels are more dependent on a good HT to be at their best? Do major knife manufactures develop a secret sauce for their HT others don't have? No doubt, custom makers have what they feel it the best approach to it.

It seems the statement comes up more often when discussing what some may view as "lower end" steel like 440C or D2, but also seen it applied to what was the super steel not all that long ago, such as CPM S30V steel.

Do I need to put on my flame resistant suit for this one? :)
 
No need for a suit, put that on after the pitchfork phase. There’s plenty of time. ;)

I think that firstly the manufacturers using high end steels are spending more on it and are therefore hoping to use the steel itself as a selling point. It is in their interest to make the most out of it with HT.

In the lower end, for marketing purposes it makes sense to sell the HT, but equally some fairly junky knives use similar low end steel and whatever HT they do they should probably not bother at all.

That being said, there’s no doubt that many feel that certain makers run certain high end steels better than others.
 
Actual metallurgist who works for a steel company, HT makes all the difference. That’s why Buck’s 420HC is “ok” even though chemically it is about as far from a super steel as tin foil. 440C is similar chemically to D2 and is perfectly ok, but often gets a shitty HT. Part of the deal with Carothers Perfirmance Knives is that they took the time to develop the Delta HT for 3V, which takes an already good steel and makes it better. A bad HT can ruin a good steel.
 
From what I understand from reading here. Some steels simply aren't worth the extra HT because the yield from the extra time/fuel cost doesn't add any value to the steel. So, no all knives are dependent on tweaked HT. The manufacture's recommended HT protocol is sufficient. Some steels have been proven to be better for knife applications if a different/tweaked HT is developed and used beyond the manufacture's recommended HT protocol. Remember, most steels are made for the tooling industry. IMO, large production knife makers tend to stay with the recommended HT to have the best all around performance without compromising the integrity of the steel. Smaller knife makers will try to develop the optimal HT in order to get the most performance from the steel they use. So, for them, it's worth the extra effort to a better performing knife so they can carve their place in a very competitive market. Add blade geometry to a different HT and you have a knife that people will talk about. As a maker, that's what you want.
Most people here on BF can tell a difference between different HT's with the same steel. I truly doubt regular people can tell a difference or if they really care.

When I learn something, especially something that peaks my interest like HT, blade geometry, carbides, I like to discuss it with like minded people in order to learn even more and see if I've learned the right thing. Maybe, that's why it seems like it's brought up a lot.
 
I did not mean to say that the D3V is the only thing that makes CPKs special or discount any other aspect of knife making.

You are correct, it is sometimes not worth spending $0.02 to put a good HT in a $0.01 piece of steel. That being said, all other things held equal, HT will be the deciding factor. Folks comment that CRK runs their S35VN soft. Could you make the steel harder without losing too much toughness, probably. 1095 can be hardened to 63HRC, but it will be glass.
 
Budget steels are usually used in budget blades, which means other budget decisions are usually being made to design down to a price point. Often that means using heat treatment processes that don't really bring out the best in those steels. 440A, for instance, is known for generally being used in crummy knives and is notorious for being soft and gummy and prone to rolling, but Kershaw used to make some truly good knives out of the stuff and got it to behave like a proper fine-grained low-carbide knife steel. Cold Steel's AUS-8A was also known for being better than from most other companies. And the same goes for the aforementioned Buck 420HC. Meanwhile, 440C is also known as being somewhat temperamental, with some companies managing to strike a nice balance between edge stability and ease of sharpening while others (I'm looking at you, Benchmade and vintage Bucks) were as stubborn to sharpen as D2 is often known for.

Benjamin Franklin once said "there never was a good knife made of bad steel", and he was right. But he forgot to mention that many great knives have been made from knives that only have pretty okay steel, and many bad knives have been made from excellent steel. Heat treatment matters, but what you get out of good heat treatment still depends on what you put into it.
 
Absolutely correct. I approached this from the standpoint of “all other things held equal”. Geometry and steel selection play a big role, but if you take two identical blades of (your preferred steel) and give one the right heat treat and shoot from the hip on the other, the one with the right heat treat will obviously be superior. That’s the only fair comparison.

HTs can be optimized for hardness, wear resistance, corrosion resistance, toughness, or a balance. There are trade offs with each. Go for hardness and toughness drops. Go for wear resistance and you can lose corrosion resistance, toughness, and in some cases hardness.
 
X Steel = X results (provided the HT is correct)

This is where, "reputable maker/dealer" plays such an important roll.

Imagine your favorite cake or pie in the whole wide world.
-now imagine somebody made that same cake/pie but used all the inferior "cheap" ingrediants instead of the top quality ones?
-imagine someone made the recipe but completely left out a key ingrediant?
-imagine somebody tried their best, but turned the temperature up too high, or not high enough, and cooked it too long or not long enough.

Steel is basically a beautiful cake or pie.
There is a specific recipe, with very specific cooking instructions... preheat oven to X degrees, bake for X minutes, let cool specifically XYZ, etc... That said, every steel does what is "expected" of it, IF it is made right, and cooked properly. The toughness, hardness, stain resistance, etc. are all measurable qualities that when done correctly, WILL fall within the expected measurable thresholds. While mistakes can and do happen, the problem comes 97+% of the time, because the baker can't be trusted, and/or the process is suspect, and that usually comes from someone trying to save a few bucks through questionable sources, or finding the "too good to be true" deals,
which almost always are.
Another 1%+ can be attributed to sheer misuse or misunterstanding. People mad because their $600 knife made a horrible prybar and broke. Or the edge snapped while using it as a screwdriver (different steels are used for screwdrivers and wrenches then typically are for knives).
Or they're mad because their 440 series (A) steel doesn't perform like the m390 they heard about, so it "must be the knife's fault", sort of garbage...

Steel will do what steel should do, provided it is made correctly and heat treated correctly. That is just science...

But a Toyota Camry will never be an F250, despite a fancy relabel, and a chocolate chip cookie will never be a snickerdoodle, no matter what the chef tells you.
 
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Maybe I'm not seeing it fully, but one part of my Q didn't get covered. Do some knife steels benefit more from a good HT than others, or does it simply go without saying that all knife steels benefit from HT? It seems clear that steel such as D2, 440HC and such with a good HT can be quality knife steels, but for others, simply following the manufacturers recs is GTG? Some manufactures will claim proprietary HT treatments also which I tend to take as marketing hoopla, unless someone confirms it third party.
 
WillB said:
Maybe I'm not seeing it fully, but one part of my Q didn't get covered. Do some knife steels benefit more from a good HT than others, or does it simply go without saying that all knife steels benefit from HT? It seems clear that steel such as D2, 440HC and such with a good HT can be quality knife steels, but for others, simply following the manufacturers recs is GTG? Some manufactures will claim proprietary HT treatments also which I tend to take as marketing hoopla, unless someone confirms it third party.
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Bad ht on 440c will make it perform like cheap 420, whereas I’ve heard that steels like 0-1 are pretty forgiving when it comes to ht.
 
All blade steels will benefit from a good HT, though not equally. 420HC isn’t going to get as hard as D2, so the difference between annealed and hardened will be less.

Any metallurgist worth his steel can work up a “proprietary” HT given enough time. They are often optimized for a particular property, though with the more complex steels, you will lose less in the optimization. It just takes time, which as stated in a earlier post is not always worth the investment in time and steel.
 
Steel is chemistry and heat treat is art.

Combining the two is complex. That's often why small builders will send their blades to someone well known for the heat treat.
 
H0kieengineer said:
All blade steels will benefit from a good HT, though not equally. 420HC isn’t going to get as hard as D2, so the difference between annealed and hardened will be less.

Any metallurgist worth his steel can work up a “proprietary” HT given enough time. They are often optimized for a particular property, though with the more complex steels, you will lose less in the optimization. It just takes time, which as stated in a earlier post is not always worth the investment in time and steel.
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And that was part of my Q, some steels benefit more than others from a good HT. Thanx.
 
Hunter got NITRO V shipped to him in bulk for large, impact cutting tools that ended up with inclusions. 3 failed in the vise on 90 degree tortures, but 2 broke on users in the field. Replace it with a known and trusted steel like 52100, right?

Hunter orders 52100 from the same source. Only problem is, they go ahead and send him a slag batch of 52100. No good for knife making. That's like making moonshine, selling the slag batch and going, 'Oh well you're blind now, our bad'.

I believe he's now thousands in the hole as he tries to replace all the recalls with cpm 3v. Talk about frustrating.

^Where these failures line up with HT I'm unsure, but I find it compelling If the US steel source can't meet standards on their shipped goods, then where does an up and coming maker turn? Evidently, turning to names, letters and numbers designated to 'steel' can be a misleading game. Perhaps it's stories and nuances like these that lead to the repetition? I dunno. I did learn one thing the hard way over the past three years: For the user, the guy and the warranty behind the knife matter far more than the 'steel' and the HT on it. Like I said, I learned this the hard way; IMO (lol) it's more than an opinion.
 
Phixt said:
Hunter got NITRO V shipped to him in bulk for large, impact cutting tools that ended up with inclusions. 3 failed in the vise on 90 degree tortures, but 2 broke on users in the field. Replace it with a known and trusted steel like 52100, right?

Hunter orders 52100 from the same source. Only problem is, they go ahead and send him a slag batch of 52100. No good for knife making. That's like making moonshine, selling the slag batch and going, 'Oh well you're blind now, our bad'.

I believe he's now thousands in the hole as he tries to replace all the recalls with cpm 3v. Talk about frustrating.

^Where these failures line up with HT I'm unsure, but I find it compelling If the US steel source can't meet standards on their shipped goods, then where does an up and coming maker turn? Evidently, turning to names, letters and numbers designated to 'steel' can be a misleading game. Perhaps it's stories and nuances like these that lead to the repetition? I dunno. I did learn one thing the hard way over the past three years: For the user, the guy and the warranty behind the knife matter far more than the 'steel' and the HT on it. Like I said, I learned this the hard way; IMO (lol) it's more than an opinion.
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What steel supplier was this?
 
Yonose said:
What steel supplier was this?
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With 100% respect my man, I am NOT going down that road. The point of my post was not to call out a supplier, but rather a coffee-driven reply to the OP for reasoning behind, "Goes without saying" being said over and over again. :)
 
Cheap budget knives won't spend the time on a good ht due to prices being so low. That's why most of the d2 is chippy and rust prone. That's why 440c and 8cr13mov is so soft. Well... It allows it to be sharpened easier and maybe a bit more abused.

Check out Carothers for instance.. They focus on ht where they have made excellent d2 unlike the China d2 you seen. And delta 3v which is very good rust resistance and very tough.

@CultroTech knives use a really good ht too. They have shown to have far longer edge retention than any manufacturer can get using the datasheet spec ht's. N690 that's like m390. Damasteel like m390 and s110v like maxamet on roids x10. There working on an m390 ht too.

Most of the mass manufacturers use a variation of the steels heat treatment protocol provided by the steel manufacturer. You can download the PDFs provided to see. But it's when a knife maker goes out of the box and knows what they are doing to make a proper ht for knives and the properties they need for an exceptional end product.

The proof is in the pudding.

Why use a high end steel name and give it a sub par ht? Cause people just see the steel name. It's a popularity thing.
 
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Bad HT definitely can ruin a good steel, see for example the S35VN that ZT ran WAY too soft and had poor edge retention on the 0220 for a time.

Another example, an intentional one, is Emerson's comical 57HRc 154CM...that is a decent steel when treated correctly but they say it's run soft for "toughness". That ignores the facts that a)154CM isn't really a high toughness steel period b) their grinds are very crudely done and so thick you can't cut anything with them anyway and c)the edge retention on their 154CM at 57 HRc is about the same as the Chinese cheap steel used in Kershaw import knives.
 
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