It's HERE! Is this Normal?

L

Lane Dexter

Joined
Aug 8, 2000
Messages
157
Yesterday, September 28, 2000, my Busse Steelheart II finally arrived! Now I have observations and questions.

The Kydex insert in the nylon sheath makes it safe, if not pretty. And the pocket that thoughtfully has both an elastic band and a long strap with Velcro, gives me room for many options as to sharpening stone I carry. Very functional.

The vertical ridges on the Micarta handle indicate handle design has changed slightly since I ordered. This should make for a better grip if hands are wet, muddy, bloody, etc. I like it.

I pulled it out of the sheath, and my eye was arrested by the "lopsided" tip. Oh yeah, I've heard about Busse's asymmetrical grind. I'll have to get the magnifier and check this out.

The smooth black finish looks weather resistant and should reduce drag during slicing (it does; I sliced bread this morning, unusual for a knife 1/4" thick) . I was surprised to see bare white metal all along the spine, around the pommel and under my fingers. The coating is unbroken on choil and guard, so I'm guessing some final shaping of the knife took place after coating. Interesting. I don't understand it, but I can live with it. If I want it darker, I can make it darker.

Well, now I have to get used to this brute. Smaller than a machete, but stout enough to serve; larger than a hunting/skinning knife, but able to do the job if careful control is exercised; not a hatchet by any means, but can chop if needed. It's no hammer, but that pommel obviously can, should need arise. Knives are not prybars, but this one could if necessary. I wanted an "indestructible blade" for my gear, and now I have one. Cool!

I have questions for those who have experience in the "factory-custom" knife world. I hope that's the right term. Busse knives are quantity produced, but they are at the lower end of the custom price range, and they are custom quality, with features and design not common to production knives, so I hope I nailed their market niche.

This is definitely NOT a gripe & bitch session. And I wish Busse only the best, as regards their goal of "guaranteed delivery." I have already decided that if I buy another Busse it will be in my hands when the money is exchanged. I am honestly curious as to how things usually work in this narrow segment of the "real world."

In late August, 1999, I attended a preparedness expo in Puyallup, Washington, where I met Dave & Heather. Nice young folks, about to get married. I looked at the Battle Mistress and one small knife on display, and discussed a Steelheart II with Dave. He quoted me a price he'd hold for a month, and said if I ordered I could expect delivery in October or possibly early November.

I thought it over for a few days, squinted hard at the limit on my VISA, considered Dave’s quoted delivery time, then on September 1st, I called him and said I wanted a Steelheart II. The transaction was "posted" on 9/7/99.

I usually get a recording when calling Busse Knives, but on Jan. 12th a real person told me "week to 10 days, Jan. 25th at the latest." A June 30, 2000 Certified, Return Receipt, Restricted Delivery letter to Jerry finally netted me a receipt dated 7/17/00 and signed by Heather (either Jerry gave her a power of attorney, or the USPS ****ed up the Restricted Delivery as they do so many things), but the letter was ignored. Posting here in August, got me an immediate e-mail from Andy, and a phone call the next morning from Jerry -- pretty good! The CEO of Chevrolet didn't call me when my Suburban was late arriving.

Jerry figured I'd see the SHII in a couple weeks, but I didn't -- not good. Returning from vacation in early September, I heard Heather on my phone machine, saying "shipping August 30th at the latest"-- good. Attempts to phone in latter half of September got me the machine -- not good. UPS arrived with my SHII yesterday -- FANTASTIC!

Is my experience typical of Busse Combat Knives, or a "fluke?"

Is my experience typical of companies operating in this "factory/custom" niche?

I am familiar with products having multi-year lead times, and I know many makers want a deposit -- often 1/3 up front, with balance due at shipping -- to make sure the customer is serious. Is "all the money right now, you'll get it in a year or so" common in this market?

Understand, my only complaint ever, was that I was promised something different than happened, and that promise affected my purchasing decision. I'm well aware that if I had done the transaction via U.S. Mail, there would have been a response in 30 days, or the federal government (USPS & FTC) would have come down on the vendor like a ton of bricks. But I'm an old fashioned "word-is-my-bond" type of guy, and don't think that crap is necessary. I have no complaints now, as I have satisfactorily determined my future course of action. At this point, I only want to learn.

These questions are probably best addressed by folks other than Jerry or Andy, fine gentlemen though they are, so as to produce a relatively unbiased cross-section of experiences. I hope we'll all (especially me) be edified by the responses.

While we're at it, what do most owners use to maintain and sharpen the SHII? I have Lansky, natural stones, man-made stones, diamond stones, ceramic stick hones, steels, various motorized sharpeners, "paper" wheel, even a belt machine with 800 grit (though I have yet to devise a way to slow it down). Always interested in experimenting.

All the Best, Friends. Sorry this is lengthy, but I'm hoping to start a thread that will yield info on what to expect out there. Looking forward to learning.

Lane Dexter

[This message has been edited by Lane Dexter (edited 09-30-2000).]
 
Good post. I believe you got your point across very well.
I think the best response is Andy's post on Busse's Team Concept. Check it out, these issues are somewhat addressed there.
I know the wait, I've had a Badger-E on order since March 2000. From reports a lot is going on at Camp Busse.
I believe delivery times will get better.

Enjoy your SH II.
And take care.
 
Lane..........Your lucky you got your knife so quick. I ordered my BM in Jan 99 with a quoted delivery time of 25 weeks from his nuclearness himself. My creditcard was charged in full at time of order. Well, it has been 20 months now and still I have notgot my knife.
Originally posted by Lane Dexter:
Yesterday, September 28, 2000, my Busse Steelheart II finally arrived! Now I have observations and questions.

The Kydex insert in the nylon sheath makes it safe, if not pretty. And the pocket that thoughtfully has both an elastic band and a long strap with Velcro, gives me room for many options as to sharpening stone I carry. Very functional.

The vertical ridges on the Micarta handle indicate handle design has changed slightly since I ordered. This should make for a better grip if hands are wet, muddy, bloody, etc. I like it.

I pulled it out of the sheath, and my eye was arrested by the "lopsided" tip. Oh yeah, I've heard about Busse's asymmetrical grind. I'll have to get the magnifier and check this out.

The smooth black finish looks weather resistant and should reduce drag during slicing (it does; I sliced bread this morning, unusual for a knife 1/4" thick) . I was surprised to see bare white metal all along the spine, around the pommel and under my fingers. The coating is unbroken on choil and guard, so I'm guessing some final shaping of the knife took place after coating. Interesting. I don't understand it, but I can live with it. If I want it darker, I can make it darker.

Well, now I have to get used to this brute. Smaller than a machete, but stout enough to serve; larger than a hunting/skinning knife, but able to do the job if careful control is exercised; not a hatchet by any means, but can chop if needed. It's no hammer, but that pommel obviously can, should need arise. Knives are not prybars, but this one could if necessary. I wanted an "indestructible blade" for my gear, and now I have one. Cool!

I have questions for those who have experience in the "factory-custom" knife world. I hope that's the right term. Busse knives are quantity produced, but they are at the lower end of the custom price range, and they are custom quality, with features and design not common to production knives, so I hope I nailed their market niche.

This is definitely NOT a gripe & bitch session. And I wish Busse only the best, as regards their goal of "guaranteed delivery." I have already decided that if I buy another Busse it will be in my hands when the money is exchanged. I am honestly curious as to how things usually work in this narrow segment of the "real world."

In late August, 1999, I attended a preparedness expo in Puyallup, Washington, where I met Dave & Heather. Nice young folks, about to get married. I looked at the Battle Mistress and one small knife on display, and discussed a Steelheart II with Dave. He quoted me a price he'd hold for a month, and said if I ordered I could expect delivery in October or possibly early November.

I thought it over for a few days, squinted hard at the limit on my VISA, considered Dave’s quoted delivery time, then on September 1st, I called him and said I wanted a Steelheart II. The transaction was "posted" on 9/7/99.

I usually get a recording when calling Busse Knives, but on Jan. 12th a real person told me "week to 10 days, Jan. 25th at the latest." A June 30, 2000 Certified, Return Receipt, Restricted Delivery letter to Jerry finally netted me a receipt dated 7/17/00 and signed by Heather (either Jerry gave her a power of attorney, or the USPS ****ed up the Restricted Delivery as they do so many things), but the letter was ignored. Posting here in August, got me an immediate e-mail from Andy, and a phone call the next morning from Jerry -- pretty good! The CEO of Chevrolet didn't call me when my Suburban was late arriving.

Jerry figured I'd see the SHII in a couple weeks, but I didn't -- not good. Returning from vacation in early September, I heard Heather on my phone machine, saying "shipping August 30th at the latest"-- good. Attempts to phone in latter half of September got me the machine -- not good. UPS arrived with my SHII yesterday -- FANTASTIC!

Is my experience typical of Busse Combat Knives, or a "fluke?"

Is my experience typical of companies operating in this "factory/custom" niche?

I am familiar with products having multi-year lead times, and I know many makers want a deposit -- often 1/3 up front, with balance due at shipping -- to make sure the customer is serious. Is "all the money right now, you'll get it in a year or so" common in this market?

Understand, my only complaint ever, was that I was promised something different than happened, and that promise affected my purchasing decision. I'm well aware that if I had done the transaction via U.S. Mail, there would have been a response in 30 days, or the federal government (USPS & FTC) would have come down on the vendor like a ton of bricks. But I'm an old fashioned "word-is-my-bond" type of guy, and don't think that crap is necessary. I have no complaints now, as I have satisfactorily determined my future course of action. At this point, I only want to learn.

These questions are probably best addressed by folks other than Jerry or Andy, fine gentlemen though they are, so as to produce a relatively unbiased cross-section of experiences. I hope we'll all (especially me) be edified by the responses.

While we're at it, what do most owners use to maintain and sharpen the SHII? I have Lansky, natural stones, man-made stones, diamond stones, ceramic stick hones, steels, various motorized sharpeners, "paper" wheel, even a belt machine with 800 grit (though I have yet to devise a way to slow it down). Always interested in experimenting.

All the Best, Friends. Sorry this is lengthy, but I'm hoping to start a thread that will yield info on what to expect out there. Looking forward to learning.

Lane Dexter

[This message has been edited by Lane Dexter (edited 09-30-2000).]
Click to expand...

 
Although I missed your post here in August (it appears as though all your posts to this forum were made today), I agree with Gregory that you certainly make a reasonable point. I would also agree with Gregory, however, that Andy's recent "Busse Team Concept" post is a strong indication of the fact that the Busse team fully acknowledges that there have been some regrettable oversights in this area in the past. I'm not sure how much help the regulars to this particular forum can be in helping you come to terms with this experience, only because a majority of us have been dealing directly with Andy when making our purchases, and so have been insulated from much of the overpromising that has apparently occured elsewhere.

And while it's certainly not my place to speak for Jerry, I would point out that Busse Combat is in the midst of a period of unprecendented growth in the demand for their knives. Further, much of this demand has come directly from various branches of the armed forces. Jerry has openly stated in the past the obligation he feels toward meeting the needs of these troops who put it all on the line to protect our freedom. In some cases this has resulted in delays to his civilian customers. Having been on both sides of the fence, I can say that I support Jerry's policy in this regard 100%. But at the same time I can also understand the frustrations of those who have had delivery dates slip as a result. Some of this information may be new to you, and if so, I hope it will help take away a little of the bitter taste you may have been left with. If not, perhaps you can accept that these shortcomings have been acknowledged and are being addressed.

As to your sharpening question, the prevailing wisdom these days recommends using whatever sharpening implement you're most comfortable with (i.e. stones, ceramic sticks, etc.) to hone the flat side of the edge grind and raise a burr, and then transition to a leather strop or slack sandpaper arrangement to strop the convex side of the edge and remove the burr. Hope this helps
smile.gif
.

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Semper Fi

-Bill

[This message has been edited by Bronco (edited 09-30-2000).]
 
Very well said, Bronco. I'll second everything you've said here. If one of our proud soldiers needs a Busse, I will gladly go back to the end of the line and patiently wait my turn. But while I doubt that anyone would feel any differently, I can certainly understand the frustration of seeing a promise go unfulfilled and a complaint go unanswered. I know how excited I got when Andy told me my knife was en-route to Burlington, and I would've been more than a little disappointed if it hadn't gotten here, even if I recognized that the vendor's priorities were well beyond the scope of my concerns.
redface.gif


However, I'm confident that such delays are a thing of the past at Busse Combat, and I know from experience that you can never go wrong by dealing with Andy Prisco. He is truly a man of his word and a pleasure to do business with.

Enjoy your knife, and don't let your previous experience discourage you from buying another.
smile.gif
 
I don't know what you guys do for a living, but here's a little insight from 28+ years of working as a tech. rep. and 5 years building semi-custom shotguns.

The mind-set of many, if not most, customers is that you are just sitting around waiting for them to call. They just couldn't understand why it would take 4 or 5 hours for us to show up and fix their machine. The same goes for our shotguns. When we tell them 90 to 120 days many of these people tell us that we can't be that busy. Some expect same day service. I tell them that government contracts come first and I'm pretty sure that it's the same with Busse.

By the way, we require full payment up front or we ship COD. My suggestion is that if you don't like that, you are free to take your business elsewere. I'm not being nasty, it's just a fact of life.
 
Busse's are knives worth the wait, End of story in my book.

I use a Coarse Japanese water stone and a set on Ceramic rods and then steeling or stroping as needed to maintain the edge.

To slow down a belt sander or grinder for that matter is not really all that hard. If you know about electrical motors (which I don't) you could re-gear it. But otherwise cut the power wire and place an in line voltage resistor. If you can knock a 110 volt motor system down to about 12 (which a 12 volt pass through resistor could be found at Radio Shack) it will move at a slow crawl. It will void any warranty on the machine and you will have to make sure that if the engine requires oil you keep it well oiled whenever operating and keep it well ventalted and cooled. It shouldn't hurt the motor to be under powered but it can put extensive wear on the moving parts if they are not maintained and regulated. It would also be a good idea to buy replacement parts and just alternate parts every once in a while to clean the used piece and give it a rest. I have converted 12 volt systems to work in a house socket so converting a 110 volt system to work on less volatge should be the same just in the other direction. Some manufacturers even make adjustable voltage resistors where you can set it anywhere from 110 to 3.5 votls. Those are cool to play with. Then you can turn your sander/grinder to a variable speed. Try this and see what kind of progress you get.

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First impressions are usually the scale by which we are judged unless we make our second with something sharp and pointy.
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Hey, suddenly I don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I agree with putting the guys in the service at the head of the line, BTW. It does sound as if things are looking up.

As to my posts all being just now, the thread I started in August was deleted almost immediately by a SysOp or Administrator. It caught Jerry and Andy's attention, serving its purpose, then it vaporized. I'd be surprised if there was a trace of it anywhere.

I appreciate the advice on care and sharpening. This asymmetrical grind is new to me. My belt machine has a 1 HP, 3450 rpm motor (someone else's college project, given to me). I'll take a hard look at that motor, and see if it will survive voltage reduction. Come to think of it, we probably do have a good sized Variac at the plant; it might be fun to experiment.

I appreciate the input from the custom shotgun shop. And I certainly undertand that there are products with VERY long delivery times, many in the knife world. Have others had similar experience with other cutlery companies?

BTW, why does it seem final shaping on the backbone of my SHII was done after coating? I should think the rust resistance of the coating would be desired everywhere possible, and the 1/4" band of shiny metal might be undesirable in some applications. Just curious.

Am I the only one who thinks a $100 throwing knife will see a VERY limited market, regardless of quality?

Stay sharp, friends. I'm NOT, this time of night, so I'm gone.

Lane
 
Your comments are right on. Maybe I can summarize: Busse knives are extremely rugged, hard use "using knives". They are not the last word on fit and finish. If you are looking to collect them, and keep them in NIB condition, it may take a couple of tries to get a perfectly finished one. I did. And the delivery times change often, due to large demand, but as someone said, the frustration evaporates when you get product in your hands.
smile.gif


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A knife is by default a tool, it's only a weapon when a human chooses to make it so.

 
Originally posted by Lane Dexter:
Am I the only one who thinks a $100 throwing knife will see a VERY limited market, regardless of quality?
Click to expand...
Everything is relative in this life my friend
smile.gif
Depends how do you define VERY limited.
My understanding is it will be limited edition as well. Besides compared to coventional knife market thrower's market is lmited already.. etc. etc.
I'd rather INFI thrower personally, should be shock resistant enough.

P.S. In my Randall 97 catalogue their thrower is priced at 90$, donno what is it now...

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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

[This message has been edited by Gator97 (edited 10-01-2000).]
 
Kellster, if I understand correctly, there are often minor production variations in Busse Combat Knives. Perhaps another SHII might have coating all the way 'round. I know earlier ones did not have the grooved handle scales. I am just always curious as to the reasons behind design features -- if indeed, they are design features. (And if I prefer a dark spine over a shiny one, I can always cold blue it.) Well, all those little variations will mean more for Busse collectors to search out.

I agree wholeheartedly, these knives are made to be indestructible, not pretty. I'm sure someone could make a beautifully finished "presentation" version with exotic handle materials, but I'm pretty confident I won't find anything more functional or stable than this dark micarta.

Gator97, you are right that all things are relative. I'm sure there are people who will buy a Busse thrower at a $100+ price, simply because it's a Busse. I guess that's what I meant by "very limited." I don't see throwers as in the same league as "working" knives or "extreme service" knives. For me, they are "fun," and any reasonably resilient piece of steel with a little heft and a point will do (I used to think "balance" was a big deal until I learned I could throw the big steel marlinspikes used by Northwest loggers). I'm guessing that Busse's production volume and methods would allow even a very small production run to be cost-effective, so I guess I'll vote for 'em to go ahead with the project if so moved by the spirit.

I am more "user" than collector. I was out on a fairly simple rescue this afternoon. While I was using our 300 psi air cutting gun to go through three sides of a windshield and flip it out of the way, I had NO interest at all in how it looked or even whose name was on the side -- only that it worked reliably and I could control it adequately to do the job. Thinking back, I believe that if I'd had nothing more than a rock and my Busse, I could still have gotten that old gent out of his car
smile.gif


My 12 year old has been chiding me for a year for not ordering the [even larger] Battle Mistress (there was one on the table when I met Dave in August '99). The first thing he said upon seeing the SHII was "Can you throw it?" Naturally I told him, "I don't spend this kind of money on a knife just to throw it." Upon reflection, I think the correct answer would be, "Yes, I could; it would take more than throwing at a wooden block to damage this knife." But don't tell him...

Good Luck, Friends. I'm sure I have more questions, but I'm already WAY off the topic of the thread.

Lane
 
LaneDexter- Everytime I hear of this sort of thing I find it hard to believe. We have heard it is getting better, that is as it should be.

UffDa- I have tons of respect for you, but your post represents an opinion that I have no respect for despite your years of experience.

The mind-set of many, if not most, customers is that you are just sitting around waiting for them to call. They just couldn't understand why it would take 4 or 5 hours for us to show up and fix their machine. The same goes for our shotguns. When we tell them 90 to 120 days many of these people tell us that we can't be that busy. Some expect same day service.
Click to expand...

While I completely understand this to be the case, I too work in a customer service capacity, what does that have to do with the inability of a manufacturer to deliver as promised? Or are you painting all those who have ordered knives and have been made to wait a near criminal amount of time with the brush of those who don't understand what you do? It is real simple, if you and others who do custom work are so experienced, why are firm delivery dates so hard to quote? Is it maybe a lack of respect for those who order your product, evidenced by your broad statements?

By the way, we require full payment up front or we ship COD. My suggestion is that if you don't like that, you are free to take your business elsewere. I'm not being nasty, it's just a fact of life.
Click to expand...

Sir, there have been all sorts of 'facts of life' and those who have clinged to them past their truth have found out to their cost.

As a final question.... If this is your attitude about the customer in general, and your attitude about missed delivery dates, how can you continue to believe that any customer should spend their money with your establishment?


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Review of the World Survival Institute, Chris Janowsky survival knife, the Ranger.

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"Many are blinded by name and reputation, few see the truth" Lao Tzu
 
I, too, work in a service-related job. IS support for my company. We spend approximately 60% of our time responding to customer requests that, more often than not, are ASAP requests.

The single most important quality that my teammates and myself exercise is telling the truth. If we know we can have something on a specific date, we tell the customer that. If we hope we can have it, but it might take longer, we tell them that. If we don't know a specific date, due to work load and priorities, we tell them that. This allows us to be honorable, yet not lock us into unrealistic deadlines that will disappoint the customer. It also allows the customer to reliably make decisions based on our expected delivery time.

If I tried to tell a customer, "If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere", I'd be looking for a job pretty quick. Statements like that indicate the true value a company, or possibly just a single employee, places on it's customers. The old adage, "The customer is always right", came about through much more experience than any of us have individually.

The amazing thing about telling the truth - most of out customers understand when we just can't meet a need. They don't like, but they certainly appreciate the reliability of the info we give them.

It's not very hard to do this. Concepts, names, new approaches, gimmicks galore. If they work, great. The bottom line, though, in customer service and the resulting perception, is completely based on the company valuing it's customer's time, money, and wishes. In deeds, not words.

There is no shame in telling customer A that customer B has priority. After all, it is a business. Customer A is far more likely to understand and still support the company under these circumstances, than if the company lies to them. Sure, the company didn't mean to lie, but if you say one thing and do another, what else is it?

With all that said, I am not judging Busse. I don't work there, so I don't know the internal dynamics nor the priorities. I do think that late deliveries appears to be the only major complaint Busse's customers appear to have. Any company with only one major customer complaint is doing dang well in my book. They could do an even better job, though, by either giving delivery dates and doing whatever it takes to meet them, regardless of who the customer is, or telling the customers up front that they simply can't give a reliable delivery date. Personally, I'd choose the latter. After all, they are people with lives, too. From what I've heard on BF, Busse and company are working far beyond what most people would be willing to do for an extended period.

Seems to me that Busse's only failure in customer service is wanting the customer to be happy so much that they give in to impatient customers and provide dates that can't be met. At some point, the politics of public perception come into play for even the most honorable companies. When that does happen, it usually isn't the fault of the company for it happening, but outside pressure. They are just trying to make the most of a no-win situation.

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Knowledge without understanding is knowledge wasted.
Understanding without knowledge is a rare gift - but not an impossibility.
For the impossible is always possible through faith. - Bathroom graffiti, gas station, Grey, TN, Dec, 1988

AKTI Member #A000831

[This message has been edited by Codeman (edited 10-11-2000).]
 
Perhaps I stated my case a bit strongly. Obviously, we never told a customer to take their business elsewhere. However, depending on how much a customer spent with the company would determine a "window" of service response. The low end customers are told up front that they would receive a service response of up to 3 days. Our high end customers could expect service within 3 to 4 hours if everything went right. I was simply relating the mindset of many of our customers.

Regarding customers relations in the custom
gun business.....There is one pistolsmith who tells customers in his brochure that if you call to find out when your gun will be ready before the promised date, it will be used for a door-stop for 6 months. i can assure you that he is not lacking for business. There is another custom gunsmith who goes to great length to explain how much time is lost taking phone calls from customers asking "when will my gun be done?"

We bend over backwards to get our shotguns into the hands of our customers before the promised date, but unrealistic expectations may not receive a polite response when they knew up front what the delivery date would be.

One thing that seems to be lacking in our modern society is patience. People seem to demand instant gratification. I say again, if you can't wait, don't order.

I missed the boat on the over long wait after a promise of a delivery date. In this case, Busse missed the boat by quoting a delivery date that they couldn't meet. As was said before, I'm sure this was done to make the customer happy, but had the opposite effect when they couldn't deliver.

I know that you don't agree with me on much of this, but we all have opinions. Isn't that great?
smile.gif


[This message has been edited by UffDa (edited 10-15-2000).]
 
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