I've got Katana #1 in hand!

Jim March

Jim March

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 7, 1998
Messages
3,022
After a bit of delay caused by me not updating my shipping address (sigh) I've got the prototype #1 Katana.

Guys, we're a lot closer than I figured to being "ready for prime time". This piece isn't at all bad, and shows true promise.

You can see the earlier thread here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum26/HTML/001262.html

Short form: the heat-treat is GOOD. It's got excellent spring properties not found in the original. Blade shape, symmetry and polish are excellent except at the very base, and I can see a simple way of fixing that.

There's some other details that need tweaking, but I'm not going to discuss that until Yangdu tells me Bill is able to laugh without pain and has good energy levels AND they're mostly caught up on backorders, etc
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.

What I *am* going to do is take notes, fire up a felt Dremel polishing wheel and some buffing compound and do some cleanup. I'll also make a horizontal frog. Then in a week or two, send it on to somebody else Bill mentioned as knowing swords. After that stop, it'll need to go to someone willing to do minor re-shaping on the grip and at that point, it'll be back to Bill for pics.

It can then be sold to someone interested in the "short grip" style that this piece represents. Even with it's minor flaws, it's a DAMN fine piece that's going to make someone very happy, especially when some minor tweaks are done
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.

Bill, the only thing you need to do right now is tell Gelbu to pause the project for a bit, and get me the EMail addy of this piece's next stop. Other than that, be aware that this sucker IS practical, without question Birghorka can produce these babies and they'll be a smash hit. This one is about on par with current Kris Cutlery standards and will end up being worth somewhere in the $200 - $250 range, however with minor tweaks the $350 - $450 range is easily attainable.

Jim
 
Many thanks, Jim. You gave the sword higher marks than I did but as you know I am our own worst critic and want things to be as close to perfect as you can get.

Give me a week and I'll be ready to tackle this project again. I think I have another coming soon and I'm not going to stop them right now. Each blade they make they learn so let them get is some practice.

------------------
Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
 
Bill, trust me here: tell 'em to hold it!

There's a few really critical things they need to know. If a new shipment is imminent, I'll put together some drawings and descriptions ASAP, you'll have 'em by this evening.

Just for starters, more complete drawings and such on each to follow:

* The pommel-disk must go; it looks good but it renders the piece utterly useless. Sorry for the bluntness but it does NOT work, it levers your "back hand" right off the grip.

* The grip must be oval instead of round! As is, there's no way to tell where the edge is without looking; this is a bad thing. On the piece I've got, the sides of the grips will need major amounts of wood removed. Khukuri grips are oval in cross-section, they need to do the very same thing here.

* The total grip weight must come down. Shaving the wood into an oval cross-section will help, and at the pommel the wood needs to travel all the way down to a single-sheet brass cap exactly like current Khukuri practice.

* The Tsuba is better than I expected, on the thin side but quite strong. It'll do just fine.

* This is the single most important bit: it turns out that they do the final polish with the blade fully assembled. That means that the base of the blade is...well, crude. We're talking about the bottom 2" or so.
They're gonna have to do polishing of both blade and Tsuba BEFORE final assembly; as is we've got flaws on the face of the Tsuba from where they tried to grind on the blade's lowest area. Not good.

* This blade curves nicely but it needs to be a "single arc", rather than starting out a gradual curve and gaining a more abrupt curve near the tip. A single broad arc means a fast, smooth draw.

* The blade needs to start heading out of the grip "straight", rather than starting at an upward angle.

* It'd be great if they could wrap a sheet of brass around the blade's base (about 1" deep) and solder it in place ahead of the Tsuba. There's a similar copper "habaki' on the original; the idea is, when that thing is in the sheath it becomes the main thing the sheath touches (instead of the blade). So on draw, the first 1" of pull is a bit tight but after that it comes free cleanly.

* Adding a horizontal frog is no problem, but the stitching will be on the *outside* for right-hand carry! Not good. Try and get the Sarkis to understand: "horizontal and edge up". That'll align the stitching correctly.

I'll work up some pictures and such tonight. I hope Gelbu can understand this well enough to translate for the kamis.

Jim

[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 04-01-2000).]
 
I don't know too much about katanas, but it seems to me that if you can get the heat treat right on a sword, the rest should follow relatively easily.

Sounds like good news to me!

-Dave
 
Dan, that's my point
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, and why I'm impressed despite this fairly large list of tweaks.

90% of the cosmetic problems are caused by trying to do final polish after assembly. I can see how that would work on a khuk and it's probably an influence on the design that we've never even considered or known about.

On this Katana it's extremely obvious that they couldn't polish the "nooks and crannies" ahead of and behind the tsuba.

Gotta polish the pieces while they're apart and you can get to 'em, in this case.

Jim
 
Bill, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised to see how many problems on that one piece a pre-assembly polish will fix.

The Khuks are polished post-assembly. Look at any Khuk carefully and you'll realize I'm right. It works on a khuk, it don't work on a Katana.

Jim
 
Jim, you said: "* The pommel-disk must go; it looks good but it renders the piece utterly useless. Sorry for the bluntness but it does NOT work, it levers your "back hand" right off the grip."

It's funny you should say that, 'cause I'm having the same problem with a talwar I recently got:
537c.JPG

Yet the disc-pommel is everywhere in India, so it mustn't have been all that bad, and probably even served some purpose. I wonder what it that purpose was?
 
In handling this piece and examining pics of various Indian/Nepalese swords, the only thing I can come up with is that they were emphasizing a "straight hammer grip".

What I mean is, the grip goes through the fist at exactly 90 degrees from the forearm direction. Doing so would increase striking power and reduce the odds of getting disarmed, but at the expense of range and strike flexibility.

Japanese and Filipino practice involves a "45 degree angle" grip, at least as a starting point. They'll shift all over the map as needed. The European "Saber" and fencing grips are if anything even more radical, down as low as 30 degrees or less. That's why a fencer can hit a target from further out than somebody handling an equal-blade-length Katana.

(scratches head)

Mebbe they needed the extra power for dealing with armor?

Maybe we don't have a clue at this point. John Powell, you happen to know what the heck was up with those freaky pommel-disks
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?

Jim
 
Jim,

I sent Bill a rough drawing that might help, and I'll e-mail it to you also. The idea is to have one side (the right) with a shallow Vee shape so that even in the dark one always can tell which way the edge is, plus it fits into the groove of your strong hand. When you see the drawing, you'll see what I mean.

Rick
 
Martial arts and subsistence farmworking skills are not my department, but I'm guessing that the kamis are trying to transfer their skill at making the Tool and Weapon of Their People to making a weapon for export whose usage is completely foreign to them.

I wonder what the result would be a master Japanese swordsmith accepted a commission to make a khukuri. I suspect that a Nepali farmer would have some constructive criticism to offer on the first attempt.
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------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Perhaps the style of swordplay made a cut to the heel of the hand a significant danger, and guarding against that cut was worth the price of discomfort and limited range of motion?
 
I noticed the handle on the katana was very straight, while the blade curved. For these kinds of swords, it's best to have a contiunous curve to the whole package. Certain Japanese swords had the center of curvature at different places. But for most martial artists today, they want the contiunous curve.

Perhaps the kamis can practice on something smaller, like a tanto or wakasashi. I wouldn't find it surprising to see a line of HI tantos in the future.
 
(Commenting on RA's suggestion for an assymetrical grip profile
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Hmmmm.

Well...at least in the system I studied, you wouldn't want that.

In a full-on downwards cut, your hands are supposed to "rotate" a bit on the grip, with an equal amount of rotation on each hand.

I don't think I phrased that clearly, let me try a different tack:

You know how, in the movies, you always see the "Samurai" with his arms locked straight out as he grips the sword? Horsepuckeys
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. Picture an initial grip with the elbows significantly bent, even though the blade is still pointed towards the enemy. As you attack, in many cases you extend the grip out towards the target...and when doing so, you get this "throttling a chicken neck"
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feeling. Grab a broomstick, hold it in two hands close to your body vertically, and then extend it away. Your hands need to "slip", and the amount of slippage in each hand needs to be identical in MOST cases.

So the Japanese practice is to run a symmetrical, oval-profile grip.

This shouldn't be hard to duplicate, considering the unflared portion of a standard BAS/Sirupati khukuri grip is EXACTLY what we need
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in terms of shape, size and proportions.

All that said, there were a LOT of different schools of Japanese swordsmanship. I wouldn't be at all shocked to hear that some figured that "hand slippage" was a bad idea, and altered the grip profile accordingly. If so, the profile you showed me would certainly work.

On blade curvature: it wasn't uncommon to see "Katanas" whose grip continued the blade curvature, much like a forward curving khukuri. Most were called "Taichis" if I recall right? Check the catalog at www.bugei.com for more details and pics.

What isn't at all common is for the curve to "tighten up" towards the end of the blade as on proto #1. That said, on proto #1 the "tightened" curve actually looks quite nice, it's not as abrupt as it appeared in some of the pics, and the Sarkis managed to do a scabbard that STILL allows a clean, smooth draw
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. Which is why I say that with the grip slightly re-sculptured and some of the brass and the blade's base cleaned up with a dremel, this puppy is going to make someone very happy
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.

Jim
 
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