Japanese kitchen knives--blade only

[firkin]

Looks like Brisa has added three traditional two-layer Japanese kitchen knives to their inventory of blades and knife-making supplies. Made with Shirogami Hagane ('White steel'). Rc = 62. Price seems quite reasonable, and for about $10 more, they sell a kit with blade, fittings, and ebony block.

http://www.brisa.fi/jap.html

Don't think I've seen a site selling just the blades before.

 

[ddean]

Not -exactly- the same knives & steel,
but the one I bought a few weeks back
www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12113
are low cost enough to consider the handle disposable
if you want to do your own fittings.
Although the wood is traditional,
they use a plastic band as a 'bolster'.
Not damascus, but 3-layer steel.

 

[munk]

Firkin- they wanted 75 bucks or so for the slightly larger blade, around 57 for the the smaller, I think; I can get a Shun damascus finished with handle for about a 100- why would i spend 75 plus shipping for these?

I'd like to know what you know.


munk

 

[firkin]

Firkin- they wanted 75 bucks or so for the slightly larger blade, around 57 for the the smaller, I think; I can get a Shun damascus finished with handle for about a 100- why would i spend 75 plus shipping for these?

munk

They are pretty different blades. The Shun is triple layer, hence double bevel. These are single bevel, and it doesn't look like they have blades for lefties on sale.

Look how thick these knives are, will have a different balance, they won't "float" like a thinner santoku or other thin-bladed knives.

The Shun is high-tech stainless, these are carbon steel laminated to iron.

Both are harder than western knives.

For "general" use, the Shun is probably a better choice, and it will easier to sharpen. The single bevel knives have to be sharpened on flat stones a wood chisel would.

These traditional knives are often marketed as "professional", and are used for the precise cutting techniques employed in sushi prep. Some pix of such techniques are linked in one of my posts here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298203&page=4&pp=20.


I have read that some people don't like the round handles on the Shun (which are the same shape as the traditional handle of Ho wood) and find them uncomfortable to use.

Some people like making stuff.

As to your actual question, I can't really say why you would do anything--I can't even say why I do some things.

 

[Yvsa]

I like these! Just wish you could get them a bit larger. Twice as long on the thick rounded one and the cleaver style and I could be really tempted!

 

[firkin]

Yvsa,

Both styles are available from many places as completed knives in larger sizes, but it ain't cheap to buy a large knife with white or blue steel.

The ones here aren't "damascus" but they have the sizes you want. But I doubt at the price you want.

http://www.japanesecutlery.com/cutlery/professionalcutlery.html

It is interesting that the less expensive knives in the "household" section tend to be offered in the smaller sizes.

 

[Yvsa]

You're right Firkin. They're just to rich for my pocketbook!
But at least the first site tells the difference between white and blue steel.
I was always confused about that and figured that they would be the opposite of what they really are. I'm used to stainless being white and carbon steel being blue.

 

[firkin]

Yvsa, they are marketing a line of stainless named blue, and it is confusing. But it means as much as the names of the other lines, like "Mamma Chef".

There are two types of carbon steel, one is called white, the other blue. Each of those comes in several grades numbered 1,2,3... depending upon exact composition. the lower the number, the more carbon. I have read that white or blue describes the paper packaging of the steel. Both get very hard, and one is supposed to hold an edge slightly longer, and the other is supposed to get slightly sharper, or some such. I suspect that many couldn't tell the difference if similar grades were used.

Hitachi makes such steels, I don't know if other Japanese factories do.

 

[Yvsa]

Yvsa, they are marketing a line of stainless named blue, and it is confusing. But it means as much as the names of the other lines, like "Mamma Chef".

There are two types of carbon steel, one is called white, the other blue. Each of those comes in several grades numbered 1,2,3... depending upon exact composition. the lower the number, the more carbon.
Hitachi makes such steels, I don't know if other Japanese factories do.

Now I'm all confused again. LMRRAO! Leave it to the Japanese.

Most sites I've seen really don't give enough info on their grades of steel, or if they do I'm obviously not understanding it.
I'm reasonably sure their grade of stainless will get pretty hard but I would dearly love to have one really nice sized carbon steel Japanese kitchen knife that would go around 62 Rc.

 

[munk]

Thanks for the information, Firkin. Your sidealley adventures are always great.

The chisel edge was supposed to cut things without the food sticking to the side. The Granton edge does the same thing. I imagine there are things you can do to food with a chisel edge, the same way a woodworker does with wood, that regardless of the Granton edge cannot be as easy with a traditional two sided edge.


munk

 

[firkin]

Thanks for the information, Firkin. Your sidealley adventures are always great.

The chisel edge was supposed to cut things without the food sticking to the side. The Granton edge does the same thing. I imagine there are things you can do to food with a chisel edge, the same way a woodworker does with wood, that regardless of the Granton edge cannot be as easy with a traditional two sided edge.


munk

It is also not supposed to crush the food that is being sliced.

I assume that you looked at the link that showed this (to most westerners, me included) astounding feat:

That white thing is a large radish, a daikon radish. To accomplish this, an extremely sharp plade with a straight edge, no rocker is required, not to mention skill and practice.

As far as I can see, some of the Japanese cooking knives are extemely specialized tools, some are not. The infornmation to make the distinction is hard to come by.

To leave on a perhaps an amusing note, the knife pictured below, is a tool for processing eels. "...The sharp and pointy tip is pushed into the eel near the head, and then slid along the body of the eel to open up the entire length of the fish. Besides the standard version as shown in the picture, there are also local styles that differ significantly for Nagoya Nagoya is the fourth largest and the third most prosperous city in Japan.."

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Unagisaki hocho

How on earth does this become a "tactical" [WTF dkoes this mean anyway?) blade in the hands of American knife makers?

Serations are big, what is next the giant tactical grapefruit knife? "There's no more severe wound than cutting wedge out of your opponent"?

Tools are tools, choose the proper one for your task and whenever possible, buy from someone who understands that and uses the tools he makes or sells for the task that you want to do.

 

[firkin]

Some more info on white and blue steel.


http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/wb.html
Shirogami

White Steel (correctly white paper steel, named for the wrapping used by its manufacturer) is used to make tools that can be sharpened to an excellent edge with good quality natural stones. It is a carbon steel with only very small amounts of the impurities P (phosphorus) and S (sulfur). It has a very narrow range of temperatures for hardening (Yakiire and quenching), and thus requires the blacksmith to be very skilled. There are two forms of white steel with different carbon contents #1, 1.2 - 1.4% C, #2, 1.0 - 1.2% C.

Aogami

Blue steel (blue paper steel) also contains very little P and S, but W (tungsten) and Cr (chromium) are added to make the hardening temperature less critical and to increase wear resistance for longer-lasting sharpness. As in white steel, there are two grades of different carbon contents: #1, 1.2 - 1.4% C, and #2, 1.0 - 1.2% C. There is one more type, called Super Blue Steel, with more W and Cr, plus Mo (molybdenum) for additional toughness and wear resistance. This also widens the hardening step, it can be cooled in oil.

http://watanabeblade.com/english/pro/pro.htm
When people talk about traditional Japanese knives, you may hear them say that the knives were made from "white (Shiro in Japanese)" steel or "blue (Ao)" steel. Alternatively, they might say "white paper (Shiro Kami)" steel or "blue paper (Ao Kami)" steel. These are not technical standards but refer to the color of the labels that Hitachi uses for some of their commercial grade steels. Among Japanese manufacturers, these become "Blue Label #1," "White Label #2," and so on. Both types are high-carbon steels in the 1.0% to 1.2% carbon range alloyed with silica (0.1% to 0.2%) and manganese (0.2% to 0.3%). The "blue paper" steels also have chromium (0.2% to 0.5%) and Tungsten (1.0% to 1.5%) added for toughness. Japanese manufacturers routinely produce knives from these steels in the Rc62 to Rc64 range, substantially harder than any Western-style blades.

For the soft-steel back, they use a very low carbon steel (0.06%) with a bit of silica and manganese (both at 0.2%). The highest-quality tools still use wrought iron from old anchors or anchor chain as the backing material.

Other links worth reading:

Seems that further down the rung, there is a steel known a yellow steel, and one caled SK steel. Also has prjections of useful lifetimes for sushi knives made kof various steels:
http://www.kikuichi.net/products.htm

http://www.thesushibar.com/ssushi_chipcolumn.shtml
Many years ago as a humble minarai (sushi apprentice), I
offered to let my sushi master use my knife to
demonstrate a cut, for his knife was not handy at the time.
His eyes widened and his mouth drew into a thin line, so
tight his lips went white. "Never let anyone use your
knife!" was his stern, almost horrified response. I
proceeded to get a lecture on how important it was that I
keep my knife "undefiled," meaning that no one should
touch it for any reason. He looked on my innocent gesture
with as much horror as if I had just invited him to sleep
with my wife. He explained that as a sushi chef I was a
descendant (if not of direct lineage, then by tradition) of
the ancient samurai warrior. He said that the same
families who forged these ancient mystical swords, still
make our sushi knives today...

... Laminated knives are a more practical choice because
they are easier to sharpen. There are four grades of
laminated knives: Hongasumi, Kasumi, Kasumitogi and
Tatsutogi (in descending order). They are mage by forging
together two types of carbon steel. Jigane, the softer
carbon steel is used on the outside to support the
extremely hard hagane which forms the very edge of the
blade and the backbone of the knife. Japanese top quality
high-carbon steel (yasuki) comes in two varieties, blue
steel (aoshiko) and white steel (shiroshiko). Yasuki
aoshiko is the hardest hagane found in the hongasumi
and honyaki, which can be honed to an ultra- fine, scalpel
sharp edge that will stay sharp longer, but is more brittle
than the softer varieties. ...

Like I said earlier, we need somebody like Danny to sort this stuff out for us. It is danged confusing.

A lot of the new-fangled stainless steels used for knives seems to come from Japan also, it seems lots of US and other non-Japnaese companies have some of their knives made there.

 

[DannyinJapan]

Sorry dudes,
I know nothing about the chef knife culture in Japan.
I know that most Japanese people use the same kitchen knives that Americans do.
Henckles are very popular.

Now,
When you start talking about an "identity" such as a "chef" or "sushi chef", then you are going into a realm where the imagination is almost as important as reality itself.
Japanese cultural identities are important to the japanese.(much as they are for teenagers in america)
People here, when they go to a sushi restaurant, are not just eating sushi. They are reaffirming their identities as japanese.

What does all that BS mean?
It means the sushi chef has to use the most ancient japanese terms for fish and food-related stuff.
They say "agari" instead of "omocha"
everywhere in japan, omocha means tea. EXcept when you are inside a sushi restaurant.

The sushi chef has to use a 200$ sushi knife.

Does a sushi knife need to be laminated and differentially tempered like a katana?
Hell no.

they dont even cut COOKED fish, just raw fish. It needs to be sharp but these things are made to fight godzilla.

They make these knives this way because they want to. Its fun to make it and fun to buy it and fun to use it and they last a looong time.


Ive seen an eel chef do his thing.
First he takes an eel, live and wriggling, and drives a spike through its neck into a hole in the cutting board to keep it from getting away.
Then he peels its skin off head to tail.
(still wriggling)

Then he pulls the guts out and throws them in a pile .(the guts keep wriggling)

Then he pulls out the knife and splits the eal meat in two.

I like eel, but the preparation is cruel to the animal, no doubt.

Here is a really cool japanese knife shop:http://www.ehamono.com/

 

[Yvsa]

Firkin thanks for the Really Great information! That's the best and most comprehensive information I've ever seen on the subject of the Japanese white and blue steels. And here all this time I was under the impression that one or the other of them was stainless steel of the order that most other kitchen knives are made from.
I've bookmarked this thread and renamed it so that I can easily find it when I want more info on Japanese steel for kitchen knives.

 

[munk]

Yvsa, could you explain to me then more about the differences between the Blue and White? I know one had Vand and a couple other metals as well and the other didn't. What does that mean to this fool holding either knife in the kitichen?

The eel, on the other hand, I understood perfectly.



munk

 

[Yvsa]

Yvsa, could you explain to me then more about the differences between the Blue and White? I know one had Vand and a couple other metals as well and the other didn't. What does that mean to this fool holding either knife in the kitichen?

munk

Munk the difference is the damned color of paper it is wrapped in when finished!
Basically the "V" for vanadium and the "W" for tungsten, as well as the chrome and other alloying materials is added for increased hardness and toughness.
The white steel is basically just a high carbon steel such as 1095.
The blue steel has the additional alloying agents, which make them more expensive as well.
Both are forge welded to a softer low carbon steel or wrought iron for additional tougness and flexable strength as the very hard steel is extremely brittle and doesn't flex well by itself.
The Norwegians have for years and years used a laminated steel for the same purpose. They laminate a piece of very high carbon steel between layers of low carbon steel for strength and flexibility. Doing so gives a knife that is capable of being made extremely sharp and staying that way for an extended length of time. It's fairly easy to sharpen because you're only sharpening a small amount of extremely hard steel instead of the whole edge being extremely hard.

Does that help?

 

[Rusty]

Put a bag of microwave popcorn into the ( microwave ) oven, and listen while it gets popping good. Imagine the popcorn is the circuit breakers of your mind being blown and you have a pretty good image of what the above explanations did to my mind.

 

[munk]

Yvsa- it is hard to imagine why being surrounded by a more flexible steel protects the hard steel in the center- the one with the edge.

I don't understand why the hard center steel wouldn't just crack.

I don't mircowave popcorn. My wife does.
I don't know if my confusion is that bad or not.
But it's not good.

Why is it simple things become so complex?



munk

 

[Yvsa]

Yvsa- it is hard to imagine why being surrounded by a more flexible steel protects the hard steel in the center- the one with the edge.

I don't understand why the hard center steel wouldn't just crack.

munk

The lower carbon steel takes up most of the flex and keeps the hard steel from flexing so much that it cracks. If flexed hard enough the hard steel will definitely crack but it would be pure abuse were that to happen.
On the single bevel knife the low carbon steel is just on one side.
Maybe it would be simpler to say the soft steel takes the stress the hard steel wouldn't be able too and keeps everything stiff enough so that it doesn't overflex.

You wrote:
"Why is it simple things become so complex?"

I'm going to use the two words your mom and my mom and probably everyone's mom used to use to explain things Munk. "Just because."

 

[munk]

Yvsa- the angle experienced by either of the outer layers of metal (depending upon which side the bend was on) can't be that much less severe than that of the center hard layer of metal.

I wanna say- you got to be kidding- but I guess it works.

as for the simple- some gear driven machines and firearms seem simpler to me than this science of steel.


Dad used to say he'd explain it when I was older.


munk