Japanese Knife to a Steel

S

smilesenpai

Joined
Dec 14, 2012
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25
I have a Shun Chef 10". Wondering what is the best to hone (purely to aline the blade) it on and do Japanese hone their knives or only stone it?

Also does one keep a carbon knife from rusting when it is used for long periods of times in a commercial kitchen?

Thanks.
 
You keep a carbon knife from rusting by keeping it clean and keeping it in use, though most don't keep it clean. Most kitchen knives in professional used today are stainless due to maintenance issues with carbon blades.

If you know how to sharpen then you probably don't use a honing steel because stones simply work better.
 
Thanks for this.

The more I learn, the more apparent it become that I have not the faintest idea what I am doing. Currently I have a 3000/6000 whet stone and that is all. After reading your sharpening blog, it looks that I must spend much more money and buy more more more and practice on lower quality knives. :( It appears that there are many methods to sharpening and honing. :eek: Confusing.

:eek: How do I load my image to a URL?... There was meant to be an image of my blade with 6000 maybe even 3000 scratch marks on the face. I misunderstood the instructions that came with the knife. I have since improved my technique but skill a long road ahead. Do you have a blog on how to correct this in detail?

I much rather learn the art at the cost of my knife than always have someone do it for me.
 
Spending lots of money isn't needed, but time and experience are. You will want a coarser 500-1000 grit stone for setting bevels and removing damage (alternatively get a cheap norton crystolon or india stone). The 3000/6000 combo stone is good for touchups and finish honing on kitchen knives. Butcher steel type hones with the grooves are basically fine files for low hardness carbon and stainless cutlery, smooth steels can be used carefully to realign and burnish minor damage and dulling out of most any blade.
 
Yep, practice practice practice. Sometimes practice/break/practice, when you feel yourself getting sloppy with your technique it's time to take a break. It's less about stone brand than it is stone construction, though there is some correlation with brand. Some are hard, cut fast, and dish slowly, others are hard, cut slow, and leave a bright polish, Some are soft/fast, soft/slow, etc. I actually don't have a huge amount of experience with different waterstones, I kind of found a happy place with my shapton 1000 back in 2005 and haven't found a "need" for anything else, but I do want a 2-3k finishing stone as I found myself not liking my king 6000 for much other than burr removal, and I have better ways of doing that than using that particular stone.
 
25 years living in Japan, and I never saw a Japanese sushi chef steel a knife. I have seen teppanyaki chefs use them, only rarely.


Stitchawl
 
stitchawl said:
25 years living in Japan, and I never saw a Japanese sushi chef steel a knife. I have seen teppanyaki chefs use them, only rarely.
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Do they ever take a moment to... Silly question. Their knives would be in the thousands of dollars unlike a few hundred dollar knife.
Thanks.
 
I'm not sure what the difference between Japanese knife and non-Japanese knife would be.
If you can steel a western you can steel a Japanese. Many do and without problem.

If a knife is a kataba and thin and very hard, which a many of Japanese knives are, then the steel could chip the edge or roll the edge away from the hollow side. This would be a good reason not to take steel to that knife.
But shun 10" chef is a ryoba, and while it's hard with HRC of 61 it's decently thick from factory. I just don't see how that knife would be different from another chef's knife of same class from Henkels or Wusthof. (I don't own that particular Shun so I don't have any experience at all.) I would try to use steel judiciously, to test the water so to speak. If it doesn't chip, but hones the blade, then I see no problem using a good honing steel.
 
You don't know but you see no problem?

That's not very good advise....
 
Knifenut1013,
By all means, please explain why a judicious use of steel on Shun Chef 10" would be a problem.
From the tone, you indicate you have experience with Shun Chef 10" and steeling (or lack there of).
I'm genuinely interested in knowing what the problem is.
 
On harder steels over 60RC I've found smooth steels to not be of much use other than straightening out a burr before stropping(and this isn't a great idea). Grooved steels just mess up the edge, a fine ceramic rod however has a nice combination of mild abrasion and is hard enough to realign even the really hard steels to put a quick functional edge back on a knife in case of an emergency. Steels work best on softer cutlery as even the smooth ones can sharpen softer steels or act as a very fine file (grooved steel) for butchering.
 
Commercial kitchens, knives are sharpened often (sometimes daily) - this helps control corrosion as much as frequent use and wiping down the blades does.
 
xuz said:
Knifenut1013,
By all means, please explain why a judicious use of steel on Shun Chef 10" would be a problem.
From the tone, you indicate you have experience with Shun Chef 10" and steeling (or lack there of).
I'm genuinely interested in knowing what the problem is.
Click to expand...

Just a little background,

I am a professional sharpener at the Phoenix Knife House, we deal in Japanese cutlery and do a large volume of sharpening for the diverse culinary seen here in AZ. On average I will sharpen 100+ knives a day ranging from made in China junk to traditional Japanese single bevel knives. A vast majority of people buy shun's because they look pretty and that's about their best feature. Well, their best feature imo is chipping and pitting.

To start a VG-10 shun is nowhere close to 61 hrc, they are much softer and this is easily seen/felt when sharpening a VG-10 blade such as a Tojiro or Mcusta.

On to the steeling,

The steel honing rod must be significantly harder than the knife steel to be honed for proper deformation to occurs. As the knife steel becomes harder this deformation effect becomes less and less of a positive thing and you end up damaging the crystal structure of the steel. Search for Heavyhanded's thread on steeling, the subject is a long story by nature and he has good pictures to help visualize what really happens.
 
knifenut1013 said:
A vast majority of people buy shun's because they look pretty and that's about their best feature. Well, their best feature imo is chipping and pitting.
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Yeah... This is my first decent knife and I regret buying it for a number of reasons, main one being the huge belly.

What do you make of glass honing rods?
 
Steeling is very controversial. It is a technique used by chefs, cooks, and butchers, but seldom by knife sharpeners and very seldom outside of the kitchen...maybe a little bit in the hunting camp...maybe. Only very soft steels benefit from steeling I think. Lamson is way down around 54 I believe. The European and American style carbon steel kitchen knives are seldom higher than 56. Japanese knives are often way up there north (sometimes significantly) of 60. Some of those fancy sushi knives are 65ish. The whole Japanese methodology is just different from the start. I can say I have not the first clue what sort of knives might be used in a Japanese slaughterhouse or butchershop and if they are ever steeled.
 
Ductility of the steel is the biggest factor I think. I wouldn't hesitate to steel Infi/3v up to 61 rc . It wasn't very effective on 64 rc M2, but mostly because that hardness matches a high quality honing steel. I've done the common high performance stainless steels at 58-60 and they respond okay but it's nothing like a low alloy carbon 50-57 rc blade.
 
smilesenpai said:
What do you make of glass honing rods?
Click to expand...


I've been using a borosilicate rod that I had made for me for the past 10 years at a chemical supply house. Best $5 I've ever spent. (It might cost $10-$15 to have one made where you live.) But if you want to save time and money, the glass that you know as "Pyrex," the glass that all baking dishes are made from, is the same borosilicate glass. Using the edge of a glass pie plate or a glass loaf pan works just as well as a commercially made rod or one you have made at a chemical supply house.

My rod is about the diameter of an ordinary test tube, hollow, but with thicker walls. I wrapped one end with a leather handle. One of those replacement tennis racket grip tapes would work very well for that.

I recommend them highly, and use them daily!


Stitchawl
 
stitchawl said:
I've been using a borosilicate rod.
Click to expand...
I live in Australia and we are lacking in such devices and on the chance that we have anything decent here it is over priced. $5! That is amazing. Does your supplier have a web page? On Chef Knives to Go they cost $110.
 
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