Japanese sword ID, WWII Military?

C

Chris Meyer

Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
1,297
Greetings everyone,

I finally picked up a sword of my own yesterday. I got it at a small town auction. I believe it’s a Japanese military sword, possibly from WWII, but that’s just a guess. The sword is about 40 7/8” overall, with a 28 5/8” blade and an 11 ½” handle. (I don’t know all the names of Japanese sword parts.) The blade has a grain to it, making it look pattern welded to me. The wrap on the handle is black, although it looks bluish in my photos. The guard is somewhat loose, and it seems to be missing whatever holds the blade into the scabbard. The scabbard appears to be wood, with some type of green paint on it.

I don’t know anything about Japanese swords, so if anyone can identify this sword for me and perhaps point me in the right direction for looking up more info, I would greatly appreciate it.


Thanks,
Chris


Sword-and-scabbard-1.jpg


Sword-in-green-scabbard-1.jpg


Sword-tip-3.jpg


Sword-tip-4.jpg


Sword-guard-2.jpg


Sword-handle-1.jpg


Sword-guard-1.jpg


Gold-emblem-in-handle-wrap-1.jpg


Handle-butt-1.jpg


Scabbard-tip-1.jpg



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Screams fake to me. The ito (wrapping) is not only done incorrectly and looks like it's made out of shoelaces. Also if memory serves me correctly the whole handle should be cast metal painted to look like a traditional piece, so the ito shouldn't even be there!

Also, folded blades were VERY rare in WW2 Japanese swords--most were machine made. Also the grain of the folding is WAY too crude to be authentic. Genuine nihonto have very fine layering--they did it for function NOT for looks, so it's never that pronounced.

Maybe I'm way off the mark, but that's just what I think.
:o
 
Thanks,

That's pretty much the same response I got on the sword forum. At least now I can cut/chop things in my backyard without having to worry about damaging something of value. Fortunately, I didn't pay a lot for it.
 
Chris Meyer said:
Thanks,

That's pretty much the same response I got on the sword forum. At least now I can cut/chop things in my backyard without having to worry about damaging something of value. Fortunately, I didn't pay a lot for it.
Click to expand...

Good! I love it when people are able to get an inexpensive education rather than a costly one. :D

Just be careful with the cutting until you get a feel for what kind of stress that thing can take--no need to end up in the hospital now! :eek:
 
A couple of things to add:
Some gunto did have real ito (according to wikipedia, type 94 had real ito, but type 95 had cast metal tsukas), and the wrapping style used on this piece is one that was used (although probably not on gunto), but what jumps out at me is the knot used to tie the ito at the end. The japanese LOVE knots, and the knots they used here were very intricate, in sharp contrast to what looks like a square knot here.
If it were a type 94 gunto, it would have two rings for suspension, not just one.
The menuki looks like it could be plastic.
FortyTwoBlades is correct about the pattern welding of the steel. Not only was this uncommon on gunto, it is clearly etched, which is a western method of treating damascus steel not done in japan.
The geometry of the blade is also suspect. The blade appears to have a slight hollow grind — japanese blades always have a convex grind on the blade.
That said, it still appears to be a cool sword. I would take it apart to inspect it and make sure it has no structural defects that would make it dangerous to cut with. The fact that it is pattern welded makes me worry about the quality of the blade steel, as high quality damascus would have been expensive. The geometry of the blade is also unsuitable for any real cutting.
So if it was me, I'd redo the handle wrapping and hang it on my wall.

- Chris
 
FWIW, here's a couple blade closeups of my sword which wears WWII mountings and saya--the grain pattern is very fine (does not look like etched Damascus) and the hamon is fairly distinct.

DSC00665.jpg


DSC00663.jpg


No serial numbers or markings on the blade as a machine-made blade would have had and the tang is signed (for what that's worth).

PS Yes, there is damage to the tip and it is in very poor polish :-(
 
Yes, the top sword in question is definitely a Chinese fake for all the reasons mentioned and then some.

The lower is likely legit, probably WW II Seki made. The lack of serial numbers or tang stamps does not necessarily mean it is totally traditionally made. Only NCO had serial numbers on the blades. Many WW II swords, especially Seki made (I think this is Seki due to the type of hamon - togariba), were signed by people other than the maker (nakirishi-mei). The addition of tang stamps (so called arsenal stamps) didn't begin until the early 1940's, so early Showa blades, even though not traditionally made, will lack tang stamps. If you can post a clear, legible picture of the tang markings, perhaps I can translate them for you.

Rich S

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
 
Last edited:
Rich S said:
Yes, the top sword in question is definitely a Chinese fake for all the reasons mentioned and then some.

The lower is likely legit, probably WW II Seki made. The lack of serial numbers or tang stamps does not necessarily mean it is totally traditionally made. Only NCO had serial numbers on the blades. Many WW II swords, especially Seki made (I think this is Seki due to the type of hamon - togariba), were signed by people other than the maker (nakirishi-mei). The addition of tang stamps (so called arsenal stamps) didn't begin until the early 1940's, so early Showa blades, even though not traditionally made, will lack tang stamps. If you can post a clear, legible picture of the tang markings, perhaps I can translate them for you.

Rich S

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
Click to expand...

Rich, is there a best way to photo the markings on the tang? It has a nice patina of rust which I know not to mess with. I've always wondered what they say--thanks for helping!

Michael

PS Thanks for the link--very interesting!
 
Micheal -

Dust the tang with baby powder and then lightly brush it off with a small paint brush, leaving the powder in the markings. Then just a standard photo will do the job. The baby
powder or any non-corrosive white powder will give better contrast for the markings.
If you have a digicam with closeup, just a straight photo will often do quite well.
Of course wipe off all the powder when finished.

Rich S

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
 
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