Japanese Water stones VS Arkansas stones

I think that all other things being equal the Japanese stones will give a more polished refined edge when used with the right technique. If you have ever handled a knife by Murray Carter you will know exactly what I mean.
 
I have both but find that I use the water stones almost exclusively. They seem to cut faster and put a better edge than the Arkansas. YMMV.
 
I was using my Lee Valley stones on my yanagi today!

I find that the waterstones just cut way faster than most other stones, and you can get a very high polish with the 4000 and up stones.

If getting some stones, definitely have some method of lapping them flat. A good idea for most stone systems anyways (except for diamonds and ceramic), but somethign that will be needed sooner for waterstones. Their relative softness is one of their benefits (and minuses.)

I have the Lee Valley "stone pond" set-up, which is a plastic tub, 800 grit and 4000 grit stone, stone holders, glass lapping plate, mylar sheets for the plate and lapping grit. Well worth the $$ if you want a good waterstone system.
 
I think the Ark stones are great and you can get a great edge with them. However, everyone I've seen that has water stones loves them. What's not to like they cut fast and give a great edge. I'm probably going to get wet stones myself. Even though I'm very happy with what I have now.
 
Here's a graph that shows you how much faster a water stone cuts verses an Arkansas stone.
 

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I use a Japanese waterstone and a soft arkansas. Works great for me; my edges look like glass and are REALLY sharp. Might give a combo of both a try. Not sure of the grit of the Japanese stone; it's a combo of coarse and fine.
 
Having tried Arkansas stones in the past, I only use Japanese waterstones now. Most of my knives are stainless with high carbide volumes, so the speed of waterstones is welcome because I can finish the job with fewer strokes. The longer it takes to freehand sharpen an edge, the more likely you're going to screw up the angle. I like Shapton stones because you don't have to keep them soaked in water, and keeping the stones flat is not a priority for me because I put convex edges on my knives.
 
Here's a similar deal with King stones http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...shop&Product_Code=MS-WSK001&Category_Code=THW that includes a very handy adjustable stone holder (seems high quality with hard rubber stops at each end and a moveable rubber support in the center... the threaded rods are chromed steel so they can rust but I just wiped mine with a bit of mineral oil and haven't had a problem... thinking about buying a couple more holders like this) This place also has some deals on Norton waterstones. They also have 3m micro-abrasive film that you can use for stropping (the grit is more consistant than using honing compound on a strop)

I haven't tried Lee Valley's natural finishing stones yet, but I've got a medium blue stone from Japan woodworker and an awase finishing stone I ordered from Japan that are really nice... I may become a fan of natural stones :) (there is a good man-made Nonpariel Blue Stone that is the size of a brick 8.4" x 3" x 2" that sells for about $73 at Japan woodworker, Hidatool and Bladegallery. Have to check with HoB since he has one, but these are made from powdered natural stones so they should make a nice slurry like the natural blue stones)
 
Yuzuha:
The nonparaille is a VERY fast cutting stone for its grit. Especially if you constantly flush the slurry away. On the other hand, if you let the slurry build up, you get a surprisingly fine finish. It is made from two different grits and it really acts like a stone anywhere between 1000 and 3000. It is also a very soft stone with a very nice feel to it, but it gauges very, very easily as well. Somebody, who is used to fairly hard and carefree stones like Arkansas or Ceramic stones may not like the non-paraille, because if you use to steep an angle and use more than the lightest pressure, the edge will bite right into the stone.

Did I meantion that it is fast cutting? Because the slurry is so smooth, you don't really realize just how fast it is cutting. I would say it is almost as a 1000 grit King stone. If you want to form a microbevel on the blue you have to be quite careful, otherwise your microbevel ends up as macrobevel :).

Oh, and by the way: www.hidatool.com sells the nonparaille for only about $55. They have two sizes the small size for $55 is indeed the same size as the one that sells at Japanwoodworker for $76. And yes, the "small" size is a brick.
 
Thanks HoB, So it is true! I've heard that this is one of the very few man-made stones that actually work like a natural stone (I figured it might since, while I don't remember where I read it, I heard that the natural stones are getting scarce... ocean blue stones are pretty much gone and other mines are finding it difficult to find large good quality pieces anymore, so they figured out a way to grind up the tailings, small stones, broken/cracked stones etc. and rebond the dust into nice uniform stones. So, these are really man-rebonded natural stones rather than artificial).

Yes, I love my aoto blue stone... flushing it constantly makes a nice fast stone but it also builds up a wonderful fine mud that gives a fine polish and is about the consistancy of thick yogurt that your blade just glides through... playing in the mud is just so fun that I have to resist the temptation to sharpen stuff that doesn't need sharpening :D I was hoping these handled just like the natural stones since I may wear out my small stone soon and thought it would be handy to be able to buy a nice big brick that isn't full of chert veins or cost an arm and a leg. :)
 
How are the blue stones for regular touchups/a working edge. Getting a 1000 grit shapton soon for setting a bevel. I've never used one before but I figure it'll be a bit coarser than I'd like for a working edge, and the only other waterstone I have now is a 6000 grit king finish stone, which doesn't leave as much bite as I'd like unless the surface is freshly lapped. I might look into getting a blue stone as an intermediate grit instead of synthetics, half the fun of waterstones is how they feel when working after all :p And that nonpariel blue for 55 dollars is looking rather tempting now. I haven't ordered the Shapton yet, does anyone know if it cuts considerably faster than a clean nonpareille?
 
Haven't tried a Shapton yet, but heard that it is a much harder stone. I really want a 5000 shapton, but haven't found one for under $100.

The blue should be a very nice intermediate stone for your purposes. I use it between a 700 or 1000 and a 6000 or 10000.

However, 1000 grit seems to me a bit fine to set a bevel. Certainly possible, also coarse enough to clean out small nicks, but to rebevel I would rather choose at least a 700 if not coarser. Well rereading your post, the Shapton 1000 might be fast enough. Rebeveling with a 1000 King stone would be a bit slow for my liking. As I said I have never tried the Shaptons, but the difference between the Bester and King stones is substantial, and the Shapton stones are famous for being very fast. So I could believe that the 1000 might be fast enough for rebeveling. Personally I rebevel on a 180-220 grit stone and fix small nicks on a 700 Bester.
 
Thanks for the info on the nonpareils, guys. Hida Tool has it listed as "Man-made Blue stone" at 2000 grit for $59.40, and Japan Woodworker has it for $73.45.

I have reprofiled V-ground edges to convex on my Shapton 1000, but these were folder blades and I use a Shapton slipstone. It does take some time, but once the edge geometry is established, the following stones finish the polish very quickly (I use 2000 and 5000).
 
Thanks, gonna get the shapton then. I currently use a SiC two sided stone for the really rough work, or a beltsander to recut a bevel that's completely unacceptable. When I say "set" the bevel I meant to get it to a point after it's been reground where I can go to the polish stone without spending an hour trying to work out the imperfections regrinding left.
 
The only Shapton I've tried is the 15,000. I usually use DMT diamond plates for rough work, though I have a minosharp 1000 (mostly to grind out some of the scratches from the DMT). I've heard the Norton stones cut very fast too, but wear a bit faster than the Shaptons (I've heard that some of the Nortons cut faster than the comparable Shaptons and also that the Shapton 1000 is a fast stone. I haven't used either, so take that with a grain of salt).

My 5000 is a Yoshikin / Global pink M5 stone (which looks to be very similar to the Shapton M5 series stones). It cuts quite fast for a ceramic stone and I like it very much. I also have a couple of soft white stones in 6000 and 8000 that work well on hard carbon steel (the Global works best on stainless, though does a nice job on tool steel as well).

I tried that cheap 12000 grit Chinese stone one of the woodworking places was selling... more like a piece of pool table slate than a sharpening stone. Seems to burnish rather than cut, but hey, it makes a nice stone strop. (might try putting some 1 micron diamond paste on it and try it out as a lapping stone)

And a hard natural awase stone that is somewhere close to the Shapton 15000 grit-wise, but puts a misty mat-polish on things rather than the Shapton mirror polish (technically, I think it produces a better edge than the Shapton, though the Shapton seems more stainless-steel friendly). I like it better than the Shapton, but I imported it from Japan and it cost me $200 so it probably isn't something most sane people would consider. :D
 
Without sounding like a total noobe here, but how can you get a convex edge off a flat stone? A mousepad/sandpaper rig or slack belt grinder makes sense, but getting a curve (convex), from a flat surface just doesn't compute to me.

Don't get me wrong, there is something much more inherently right in using a stone. 90% of my knives have a convex edge though.

If I could do a convex edge on a stone, I'd be in Hog heaven. Seriously.

But I've never had explained to me, HOW? Not in terms I could understand at least.

Please! After reading all this I would really like to snag some wet stones. Thanks.

Rob
 
Convexing with a flat stone is much easier than you'd think. In fact if your hand sharpening on a stone without a jig your probably already doing it. If not be more sloppy on holding an angle, or have a few drinks before sharpening. :)
 
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