RokJok
Gold Member
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2000
- Messages
- 4,169
Here's a posting from Jerry Hossom on steels & edges that IMHO ring true, especially in regards to customer expectations and how they can impact & influence the knifemaker's trade. I'm pasting them here for those that don't get over to CKD.
The full thread is here:
http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17759
Another thread with comments by Mr Hossom on edges and how he makes them:
http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17099
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Just so there's no mistaking what I was saying ("people used to say that D2 took a terrible edge and held it forever"), IF I weren't using CPM-3V, I'd be using D2. D2 is a heck of a steel. Some outstanding knifemakers use D2 and they're outstanding knifemakers because their knives are outstanding. You can't make an outstanding knife with crappy steel.
I don't doubt for a minute that a skilled person can put a very good edge on D2. The "average" knife user probably can't, but that's probably not all that important. The average knife user can't put a good edge on anything. I deal with a lot of average knife users and I sharpen a lot of knives that aren't my own. I've seen VERY few knives that have been customer sharpened that had a very good edge. I doubt that applies to people who are reading this, because if you have enough interest in knives to be reading this, you're not average by any means. Average is the guy who goes hunting once a year, and sharpens his knife the week or night before the season opens (if at all). He hasn't touched that knife since he skinned his deer last year. It really doesn't matter, because field dressing, skinning and even cutting up a whitetail (as much as they are cut up in the field) isn't very demanding. Most hunters come home with four hams and the backstraps and that's it. Personally, I don't like a sharp knife for skinning because it cuts the skin too easily, especially when my hands are cold and my hands are most always cold when I'm skinning.
In most field use, durability and a reasonably sharp edge are all you need. People who spend $300 on a hunter want more than that, but that's primarily because they spent $300, and not because they need something sharp enough to shave the hair on a baby's butt. What they do need is a knife they can stick in the ground and pick up again and still have it cut fairly well, because that's what they're going to do. In that case, the shape of the edge is likely much more important than its shaving sharpness or the steel used. The finer the edge when it goes into the ground or runs across a section of leg bone as they're hacking off the hocks, the duller that edge will be when it's done. The finest possible edge is the weakest edge; it will either chip or roll and that will make it dull quickly. The stronger the edge, meaning less hair popping, the longer it will maintain that edge in real use. (I admit that's an over-simplification of the facts, but it's generally true in most cases) This isn't just about "wear resistance" as measured by the steel companies; it's about that PLUS lateral toughness, ductility and geometry. AND THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!
I used to put "functional" edges all my knives, but finally stopped doing that because people expected every knife, regardless of its intended use, to be a hair popper, so now I ship all my knives with hair popping edges, or as close to that as my conscience will allow. I ship swords that are shaving sharp, knowing that if one ever got used it would chip or roll the first time it met an opposing blade. I back that edge with sufficient steel so the damage will be minimized and can be sharpened out, and the edge won't chip more than a millimeter or so, but it's not a good edge for a sword. Similarly with combat and fighting knives, I ship them VERY sharp, knowing that when they hit metal or the spine of another knife with a hard blow or are run across a nail in a crate a few times they're likely to roll. I usually offer everyone, especially military, a functional edge that won't ever do that and will generally still be cutting pretty well at the end of their deployment, but for $400-800 many still want hair splitting sharp. Military people are usually more understanding of this though. Few hunters are.
High impact steels are more tolerant of sharpness than other air hardened steels. Most of the blades I make today are intended for rough use, and that's why I mostly use high impact steels. But I also use 154CM, and design the edge accordingly. D2 and 154CM have similar toughness qualities; D2 might have a slight advantage there. D2 is a LOT more wear resistant. They take a similar edge in my experience. I like 154CM for hunters, but I doubt one could quarter an elk. Most hunters who use my 154CM blades can get through 3 deer in a season without sharpening. Some haven't been sharpened in years and are still cutting. D2 is better.
In REAL use, S30V will hold an edge a LOT longer than 440C, a WHOLE lot longer!
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The full thread is here:
http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17759
Another thread with comments by Mr Hossom on edges and how he makes them:
http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17099
================
Just so there's no mistaking what I was saying ("people used to say that D2 took a terrible edge and held it forever"), IF I weren't using CPM-3V, I'd be using D2. D2 is a heck of a steel. Some outstanding knifemakers use D2 and they're outstanding knifemakers because their knives are outstanding. You can't make an outstanding knife with crappy steel.
I don't doubt for a minute that a skilled person can put a very good edge on D2. The "average" knife user probably can't, but that's probably not all that important. The average knife user can't put a good edge on anything. I deal with a lot of average knife users and I sharpen a lot of knives that aren't my own. I've seen VERY few knives that have been customer sharpened that had a very good edge. I doubt that applies to people who are reading this, because if you have enough interest in knives to be reading this, you're not average by any means. Average is the guy who goes hunting once a year, and sharpens his knife the week or night before the season opens (if at all). He hasn't touched that knife since he skinned his deer last year. It really doesn't matter, because field dressing, skinning and even cutting up a whitetail (as much as they are cut up in the field) isn't very demanding. Most hunters come home with four hams and the backstraps and that's it. Personally, I don't like a sharp knife for skinning because it cuts the skin too easily, especially when my hands are cold and my hands are most always cold when I'm skinning.
In most field use, durability and a reasonably sharp edge are all you need. People who spend $300 on a hunter want more than that, but that's primarily because they spent $300, and not because they need something sharp enough to shave the hair on a baby's butt. What they do need is a knife they can stick in the ground and pick up again and still have it cut fairly well, because that's what they're going to do. In that case, the shape of the edge is likely much more important than its shaving sharpness or the steel used. The finer the edge when it goes into the ground or runs across a section of leg bone as they're hacking off the hocks, the duller that edge will be when it's done. The finest possible edge is the weakest edge; it will either chip or roll and that will make it dull quickly. The stronger the edge, meaning less hair popping, the longer it will maintain that edge in real use. (I admit that's an over-simplification of the facts, but it's generally true in most cases) This isn't just about "wear resistance" as measured by the steel companies; it's about that PLUS lateral toughness, ductility and geometry. AND THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!
I used to put "functional" edges all my knives, but finally stopped doing that because people expected every knife, regardless of its intended use, to be a hair popper, so now I ship all my knives with hair popping edges, or as close to that as my conscience will allow. I ship swords that are shaving sharp, knowing that if one ever got used it would chip or roll the first time it met an opposing blade. I back that edge with sufficient steel so the damage will be minimized and can be sharpened out, and the edge won't chip more than a millimeter or so, but it's not a good edge for a sword. Similarly with combat and fighting knives, I ship them VERY sharp, knowing that when they hit metal or the spine of another knife with a hard blow or are run across a nail in a crate a few times they're likely to roll. I usually offer everyone, especially military, a functional edge that won't ever do that and will generally still be cutting pretty well at the end of their deployment, but for $400-800 many still want hair splitting sharp. Military people are usually more understanding of this though. Few hunters are.
High impact steels are more tolerant of sharpness than other air hardened steels. Most of the blades I make today are intended for rough use, and that's why I mostly use high impact steels. But I also use 154CM, and design the edge accordingly. D2 and 154CM have similar toughness qualities; D2 might have a slight advantage there. D2 is a LOT more wear resistant. They take a similar edge in my experience. I like 154CM for hunters, but I doubt one could quarter an elk. Most hunters who use my 154CM blades can get through 3 deer in a season without sharpening. Some haven't been sharpened in years and are still cutting. D2 is better.
In REAL use, S30V will hold an edge a LOT longer than 440C, a WHOLE lot longer!
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