Jim March

G

ghostsix

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Jim came up with an interpretation of CA law re:the SOMOM D/A which appears to have merit.Jim knows as much as a lawyer,in that field.How might that affect the OTF D/A,and how does GT make longer autos,without being in violation?Some sort of exemption?

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Hmmmm...well, thanks for the kind words but #1, what you have to realize is that my info comes almost PURELY from reading the law itself. Sounds great, right? Except I have no way of looking up "case law", which CAN be pretty damn critical. Although I'm of the opinion it would be pretty rotten to bust somebody in compliance with the stated penal codes but in violation of judicial decisions we "peons" have no way of even knowing about.

Still, when I say (often) "I am not a lawyer" - BELIEVE IT.

And don't forget to cross-check with James Mattis who's just as well read.

-=WHAT FOLLOWS IS CALIFORNIA LAW ONLY!=-

Now, on to G6's point: in Penal Code 653k it says two key things: critters with a spring-open and a blade of 2" or more are verbotten, and "knives with a manual push-the-blade-open-system are guaranteed legal". Col, if I understand right, you're suggesting that if it's got BOTH, the guaranteed-legal part on the thumbstud might clear you?

Errrrr...my first guess, I don't think so.

Lesse here. Penal Code 653k from: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html (with "Penal Codes" box checked and "653k" as the search term)

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653k. Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor.

For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches long and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that is designed to open with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade.

For purposes of this section, "passenger's or driver's area" means that part of a motor vehicle which is designed to carry the driver and passengers, including any interior compartment or space therein.
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That's all of it. Notice the lack of length mentioned
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. Hellooooooo Sifu.

Now, when G6 first posted I was sure he'd be wrong. I *am* sure that you'll catch legal hell, but I'm not totally convinced he's off!

Here's why: the original intent involved a court case where a Spyderco Mariner was grabbed by the blade in court by a cop, who whipped the handle down and opened the knife. This convinced the jury the piece was a "gravity knife". The thumbstud/thumbhole thing was put in AFTER that to protect against any such stupidity in the future.

In other words, the paragraph that starts with "For the purposes" was INTENDED to override the "gravity knife" portion earlier in the code (and much older). And in that previous paragraph, there's no difference in illegality between a springload and a "gravity knife". Pretty much all of us have handled or own good quality folders that can be snapped open REAL easy and could qualify as "gravity knives" under the wrong circumstances (read: wrong cop).

So if holes/studs make "gravity knives" legal, do they make actual spring-load autos legal?

Wow. Helifino how a court would figure that. I DO know a cop would give you real grief assuming he figured out the secondary opening system
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.

But it would seem you COULD argue it's legal with a straight face.

HEY AUTO FREAKS
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: YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN WITH THIS ONE!

Jim
 
Anyone who attended the Pasadena show this year may have run across a maker who had knives that would fall into this catagory. He was over by where James Mattis' table was. His knives looked like regular everyday liner lock folders but as you thumbed open the blade using the thumb stud a spring mechanism took over after a few mm and opened it the rest of the way. He was convinced that it was legal under CA law because, just as has been stated here, it had a thumbstud to open it. Of course when I asked him if he had spoken to any lawyers, judges or LEOs about the legality he told me he hadn't. So there ya go, somebody else who, rightly or wrongly, believes that a thumbstud makes it legal even with a spring opening mechinism. YMMV.

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Megafolder Fans Unite!

Mike Melone

"Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. " Psalm 144:1
"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." --Thomas Jefferson

 
It is an interesting topic.It would not apply to me.I was just curious.I do go to CA.I stop by some cop shops to trade badges and patches.I think that out of state LEO`s and Mil. require official bussiness to pack.Heck.I`ll attend a meeting in the interest of interstate cooperation.Actually,I have learned a few things from CA agencies,so it really isn`t bogus.Thanks Jim.

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Maybe Ken Onion or someone from Kershaw could comment on this.

I would assume that Kershaw would have had their Lawyers look at the Laws before marketing the Random Task in California and other areas.


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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
The Ken Onion/Kershaw "spring assisted manual opener" is yet ANOTHER oddball...and not the type I was discussing.

For those unaware, the "Double Action Socoms" can be opened and closed just like a regular thumbstud knife, or you can hit a button (that's not all that obvious) and it'll SPROING like a true auto. These hold far more potential legal trouble than a Ken Onion, in my opinion.

The Onion system *could* still get you in trouble, but it's not as likely as what would follow if a cop realized what the Socom DA's button was for.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN LEGAL CLIMATE. In Berkeley with cops one step removed from brownshirts, forget it. In Orange County and a decent town, no sweat mebbe. And if you're going to push the laws this close to the firewall, your attitude will have a major effect on the outcome.

Jim
 
The American Slider is another new design that presents opportunities for interpretation.

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"'Switchblade knife' does not include a knife that is designed to open with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade."

Here's where being a lawyer comes in handy. If I was prosecuting and saw a DA SOCCOM in my courtroom, I would argue the carrier would be in clear violation of the law because this knife fell under the statutory definition of switchblade. And I promise you that I would win. Why? Because I am a mean, mean person. Actually, it has to do with the rules of statutory interpretation.

First, the legislative intent of the statute is to prohibit anyone owning anything fun. A standard rule of statutory interpretation (at least in Illinois, and likely in California) is that laws may not be interpreted in a way that contradicts the clear intent of the legislature in enacting them. Clearly CA wanted to prohibit all fun, i.e. spring- powered, knives with blades over 2", and the DA SOCCOM falls in that category. Arguing that the fact the knife is ALSO manual should not be attempted by anyone who needs to maintain a clean criminal justice record.

Second is that when parsing out that poorly-constructed sentence above (the legislature's, not mine), the clear interpretation of it is: "it's not a switchblade if it is designed so that the only way it is meant to be opened is by applying manual hand pressure either to the blade itself, or to a stud attached to the blade." The only other way to read that line is "it's not a switchblade if it's a knife that you need to apply manual pressure to the blade to open, or if it's a thumbstud." Another rule of statutory interpretation is that legislation cannot be interpreted in a way that makes it absurd (insert joke about legislative process here). Thus "solely" must be taken to modify "blade" AND "blade with thumbstud." Since a DA is designed to be opened EITHER by manual pressure on the blade OR by pressing a spring-release mechanism that's not the blade/thumbstud (ie it's a button set into the handle), it does not fall within the exception to "switchblade" provided by statute.

Incidentally, although the Ken Onion Speed-Safe technology makes his knives arguably switchblades, they aren't in California - rules of statutory interpretation to the rescue again - because although these might fall within the broad definition of switchblade given in the beginning of the section, they definitely fall within the later definition of exceptions to the term switchblade; since the more specific language always governs, the fact that they fall within the specific exception trumps any attempt to fit them within the wider definition, and they are kosher carry. In my view. But I don't practice in California!

So - sorry you asked?

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The beatings will continue until morale improves.
 
Well,I`ll just have to follow my practice since`68.If the auto is the only cause for arrest,maybe a minor in possesion who has not yet been drinking,no priors,I`ll just confiscate the contraband,and kick `em loose.I don`t want to give a kid a record over that.Probable cause could be crossing the centerline more than once.The kid has been fooling with his radio.A warning will do.You have already scared them to death with the light bar.They are going to be more carefull,and safe.That is what we want.
 
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