Joseph Fleming? Ireland?

[eisman]

So here we have a very nice ERA Seahorse Whittler. That much is clear. Very well built, the only issue is a little blade rub. Seriously good springs. But is it an advertising knife? Not to any firm I can find. And what's the significance of the year 1968?

This doesn't look like a one off; a piece made for one person to commemorate an event. The writing seems to be part of the mold of the scales. But you would think an event large enough to be worthy of a number of knives would have something left in history. (not that I can find...)

 

[OLd_gUY]

A very WILD GUESS - possibly an in memoriam ?? - 1968 saw an escalation in Ireland of the conflicts between Catholics and Protestants and "bloody riots broke out in Londonderry in 1968 and in Londonderry and Belfast in 1969. British troops were brought in to restore order, but the conflict intensified ....which lingered into the 1990s, became known as "the Troubles."
- paraphrased, from an Infoplease article by by Ann Marie Imbornoni, Borgna Brunner, and Beth Rowen
PERHAPS Fleming might have been someone of note in those 1968 riots?
I am not of Irish heritage, but when I saw 1968 and Ireland in green on the knife, those times were first thing I thought of. Sure was a lot of worldwide turmoil in the '60's.

The following is from the same article and is meant as an FYI only, - meaning NOT a political statement, for those who may not be aware of those horrendous times in Ireland.
"Political separation of Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland did not come until the early 20th century, when Protestants and Catholics divided into two warring camps over the issue of Irish home rule. Most Irish Catholics desired complete independence from Britain, but Irish Protestants feared living in a country ruled by a Catholic majority.
Government of Ireland Act
In an attempt to pacify both factions, the British passed in 1920 the Government of Ireland Act, which divided Ireland into two separate political entities, each with some powers of self-government. The Act was accepted by Ulster Protestants and rejected by southern Catholics, who continued to demand total independence for a unified Ireland.
The Irish Free State and Northern Ireland
Following a period of guerrilla warfare between the nationalist Irish Republican Army (IRA) and British forces, a treaty was signed in 1921 creating the Irish Free State from 23 southern counties and 3 counties in Ulster. The other 6 counties of Ulster made up Northern Ireland, which remained part of the United Kingdom. In 1949 the Irish Free State became an independent republic."
Which brings us to back the escalation noted above.
OG
MODS: if this is inappropriate, please delete if indicated - OG

 

[GermanyChris]

A very WILD GUESS - possibly an in memoriam ?? - 1968 saw an escalation in Ireland of the conflicts between Catholics and Protestants and "bloody riots broke out in Londonderry in 1968 and in Londonderry and Belfast in 1969. British troops were brought in to restore order, but the conflict intensified ....which lingered into the 1990s, became known as "the Troubles."
- paraphrased, from an Infoplease article by by Ann Marie Imbornoni, Borgna Brunner, and Beth Rowen
PERHAPS Fleming might have been someone of note in those 1968 riots?
I am not of Irish heritage, but when I saw 1968 and Ireland in green on the knife, those times were first thing I thought of. Sure was a lot of worldwide turmoil in the '60's.

The following is from the same article and is meant as an FYI only, - meaning NOT a political statement, for those who may not be aware of those horrendous times in Ireland.
"Political separation of Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland did not come until the early 20th century, when Protestants and Catholics divided into two warring camps over the issue of Irish home rule. Most Irish Catholics desired complete independence from Britain, but Irish Protestants feared living in a country ruled by a Catholic majority.
Government of Ireland Act
In an attempt to pacify both factions, the British passed in 1920 the Government of Ireland Act, which divided Ireland into two separate political entities, each with some powers of self-government. The Act was accepted by Ulster Protestants and rejected by southern Catholics, who continued to demand total independence for a unified Ireland.
The Irish Free State and Northern Ireland
Following a period of guerrilla warfare between the nationalist Irish Republican Army (IRA) and British forces, a treaty was signed in 1921 creating the Irish Free State from 23 southern counties and 3 counties in Ulster. The other 6 counties of Ulster made up Northern Ireland, which remained part of the United Kingdom. In 1949 the Irish Free State became an independent republic."
Which brings us to back the escalation noted above.
OG
MODS: if this is inappropriate, please delete if indicated - OG

It’s funny I was thinking it was an IRA thing too

 

[Jack Black]

A nice little knife eisman , but it's not a wild guess to say that isn't a Seahorse Whittler, but a Wharncliffe Whittler (I'm surprised at you my friend! ). I think you'd need to look a bit more closely at the manufacture before you can dismiss the knife being a one-off, and speculate further, wildly in this case. What you can almost certainly say about it though I think, is that it does not relate to the Anglo-Irish conflict. The numbers killed are not so great, during 1968, that their names are unknown, but the central point is this, the conflict in that period took place almost entirely in the partitioned former six counties of the north of Ireland known as 'Northern Ireland', and if Joseph Fleming had been a Loyalist (or Protestant), his friends and family, would not have used the term 'Ireland', but 'Ulster', or possibly 'Northern Ireland'. If he had been a Nationalist or Republican (or Catholic), how likely is it that his friends and family would have chosen a British penknife to commemorate his memory?! Wild guesses lead you up blind alleys, and a lack of readily available answers are not an excuse for them. Hopefully, Joseph Fleming is at home, smoking his pipe, having enjoyed a pleasant fishing trip in the spring of '68

 

[OLd_gUY]

A nice little knife eisman , but it's not a wild guess to say that isn't a Seahorse Whittler, but a Wharncliffe Whittler (I'm surprised at you my friend! ). I think you'd need to look a bit more closely at the manufacture before you can dismiss the knife being a one-off, and speculate further, wildly in this case. What you can almost certainly say about it though I think, is that it does not relate to the Anglo-Irish conflict. The numbers killed are not so great, during 1968, that their names are unknown, but the central point is this, the conflict in that period took place almost entirely in the partitioned former six counties of the north of Ireland known as 'Northern Ireland', and if Joseph Fleming had been a Loyalist (or Protestant), his friends and family, would not have used the term 'Ireland', but 'Ulster', or possibly 'Northern Ireland'. If he had been a Nationalist or Republican (or Catholic), how likely is it that his friends and family would have chosen a British penknife to commemorate his memory?! Wild guesses lead you up blind alleys, and a lack of readily available answers are not an excuse for them. Hopefully, Joseph Fleming is at home, smoking his pipe, having enjoyed a pleasant fishing trip in the spring of '68

It is a very nice knife for sure. I'd sure like to put it to a block of basswood.
As always, thank you Jack. I did preference my statement as a wild guess. I too, thought about the maker being British. Perhaps I should have used supposition.
OG

 

[eisman]

it's not a wild guess to say that isn't a Seahorse Whittler

Jack- this pattern is identical to the Case Seahorse Whittler I have in the box; complete with the factory description, although that knife is not a shadow scaled model. Both have the two tapered springs and over wide main blade. I expect both names have been used by different makers; not the first time that's happened.

Likewise, I didn't think about "the troubles" as a reason for the inscription, and (seeing the maker) did wonder about a one off, but I've never encountered a synthetic scaled knife with a one off inscription before. I think it's interesting, and seriously hope Joseph Fleming had a good trip back in '68. And if he's home with his pipe and memories, let him know I've got his knife, and who knows...

 

[Jack Black]

Jack- this pattern is identical to the Case Seahorse Whittler I have in the box; complete with the factory description, although that knife is not a shadow scaled model. Both have the two tapered springs and over wide main blade. I expect both names have been used by different makers; not the first time that's happened.

Likewise, I didn't think about "the troubles" as a reason for the inscription, and (seeing the maker) did wonder about a one off, but I've never encountered a synthetic scaled knife with a one off inscription before. I think it's interesting, and seriously hope Joseph Fleming had a good trip back in '68. And if he's home with his pipe and memories, let him know I've got his knife, and who knows...

Just like GEC gives names to its versions of traditional patterns - the French Kate pattern, for example, obviously predates GEC, though the name doesn't - so Case (and numerous other companies) have done the same, with the subsequent names being exclusive to those companies. The pattern, however, is an old one, supposedly first used by Joseph Rodgers & Sons, and a variation of their original Wharncliffe Knife, but it was made by many cutlers on both sides of The Pond (Levine shows examples by Ulster and Schrade, as well as by Rodgers)

I know little about the technology for marking scales of this kind, but the scales themselves are very common on mid 20th century Sheffield knives. I might ask about the marking process when I am next in Sheffield, but pantograph machines were extremely common, in Sheffield at least (though I assume this knife was marked in Ireland), and the process takes just seconds. When I was a boy, at the seaside, penknives could be bought with your name marked on the handle, but I don't know how it was done, and one-off penknives with Ivorine and French Ivory Handles were marked up for many firms as samples. I have a small Lady's Knife with a name engraved in the MOP handle. The name was so unusual it had actually died out, and I was actually able to trace it to the original owner That kind of thing is rare of course, but 1968 is really not so long ago, so perhaps, as has happened before, Mr Fleming may one day come across this thread One of the most interesting things for me about older knives is finding out their mysteries, but we do not always get to learn all of them

 

[eisman]

pantograph machines were extremely common

Jack, you made me go back and look. Thanks to digital photography you can see that the inscription was cut using a round tool (like a small end mill). I'd bet it was a pantograph. I hadn't thought of that, and I should have. (I do know how that is done.)

I'd bet that doing stuff like this would have been a pretty nice nitch market for souvenirs.

As for the pattern names, Charlie and I had a short conversation regarding the "Irish Congress / Congress Jack / etc" not too long ago. I have books that show at least three different names for the same pattern (both blades on one end), and one book that shows two different patterns with the "Irish" name attached. As this is a Sheffield made knife I'll defer to the Wharnecliff name for this one.

 

[Jack Black]

Jack, you made me go back and look. Thanks to digital photography you can see that the inscription was cut using a round tool (like a small end mill). I'd bet it was a pantograph. I hadn't thought of that, and I should have. (I do know how that is done.)

I'd bet that doing stuff like this would have been a pretty nice nitch market for souvenirs.

As for the pattern names, Charlie and I had a short conversation regarding the "Irish Congress / Congress Jack / etc" not too long ago. I have books that show at least three different names for the same pattern (both blades on one end), and one book that shows two different patterns with the "Irish" name attached. As this is a Sheffield made knife I'll defer to the Wharnecliff name for this one.

That makes sense, I imagine the machines were available in many sizes. A.Wright & Son in Sheffield still use this one, which will mark up to around a dozen knives at once I think, but they are happy to just mark one knife for me if necessary

The Sheffield cutlers would sometimes send etched penknives out to firms, inviting their custom. Certainly better than some of the junk-mail that comes through my own door! This knife was marked in the same way, I used to know the business as my grandmother lived nearby, and it was just a small scrapyard, whose owners, I very much doubt, would have thought having a load of penknives made up was a wise investment!

Often names are about marketing, and I think much of that is true of the Wharncliffe Knife also, but I think it is original to that pattern. As for patterns in general, while I wouldn't defer to him on everything, I tend to regard Mr Levine as the definitive source in terms of traditional knife patterns, though they are always enjoyable to discuss If I am not mistaken, there was an article on the Wharncliffe Knife published in Knife Magazine last year

EDIT - Just thought I'd add a photo of this lovely old Joseph Rodgers Wharncliffe Whittler in ivory, which belongs to Paul Iseard of The Famous Sheffield Shop, as does the Joseph Rodgers catalogue (though the knife is a Wharncliffe Knife not a Wharncliffe Whittler)

 

[waynorth]

Is it possible the Handle markings are embossed?
One of my friends here has an embossing machine, with which he can easily color-emboss completed, plastic-handled knives. It uses heat and color film/leaf.