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JS Test knife input
- Thread starter jdm61
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Joe-
I think you could make it out of 5160 with your eyes closed, and pass
I used 52100. It was forged very closely to shape and normalized in the forge twice. I ground a little scale off the blade to give it a good check, and then ran it through a speroidal anneal in the Paragon.
Did my grinding, then ran it through three descending normalizing cycles in the salt (1550, 1500, 1450). Brought it up to austenizing heat (1515-1520) in the salt and after the salt temp equalized, I soaked it for 15 minutes.
Quenched it point down into a long tank of AAA. This resulted in an Rc of somewhere around 63.5
Did a snap temper at 300, then put it in liquid nitrogen. Checked Rc and it was up to 64.5 or so.
Tempered two more times at 425-450... don't remember for sure. Heck, maybe it was hotter, my memory is escaping me right this minute!
Then used "tempering tongs" on the spine. These are just tongs with 1" square stock welded perpendicular to the end of tongs (pieces are about 4" long). Put the tongs in the forge and get them HOT. With the blade edge in a pan of water, clamp the tongs on the spine. This is a pretty controlled way to differentially temper the blade.
Mine was ground to a very thin edge.
It was very difficult to bend it to 90 (which I think is better than one that just flops over) and nearly came back to straight.
I'm always open to suggestions or ideas as to how processes like this could be improved... but the blade definitely did just what I wanted it to.
Normally, I would not bother with the "tempering tongs," I would just leave that part out.
Looking forward to others' responses!
I think you could make it out of 5160 with your eyes closed, and pass
I used 52100. It was forged very closely to shape and normalized in the forge twice. I ground a little scale off the blade to give it a good check, and then ran it through a speroidal anneal in the Paragon.
Did my grinding, then ran it through three descending normalizing cycles in the salt (1550, 1500, 1450). Brought it up to austenizing heat (1515-1520) in the salt and after the salt temp equalized, I soaked it for 15 minutes.
Quenched it point down into a long tank of AAA. This resulted in an Rc of somewhere around 63.5
Did a snap temper at 300, then put it in liquid nitrogen. Checked Rc and it was up to 64.5 or so.
Tempered two more times at 425-450... don't remember for sure. Heck, maybe it was hotter, my memory is escaping me right this minute!
Then used "tempering tongs" on the spine. These are just tongs with 1" square stock welded perpendicular to the end of tongs (pieces are about 4" long). Put the tongs in the forge and get them HOT. With the blade edge in a pan of water, clamp the tongs on the spine. This is a pretty controlled way to differentially temper the blade.
Mine was ground to a very thin edge.
It was very difficult to bend it to 90 (which I think is better than one that just flops over) and nearly came back to straight.
I'm always open to suggestions or ideas as to how processes like this could be improved... but the blade definitely did just what I wanted it to.
Normally, I would not bother with the "tempering tongs," I would just leave that part out.
Looking forward to others' responses!
Last edited:
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What Nick said.
I am a chicken, so I went with 5160. I basically followed the instructions on Ed Caffrey's site, and the thing performed like a champ.
I also tested about 5 similar blades that all passed with differing degrees of satisfaction. In fact, I took one right from the quench--no temper at all--and it still passed the 90 degree bend. Pretty much idiot proof, and I would know
John
I am a chicken, so I went with 5160. I basically followed the instructions on Ed Caffrey's site, and the thing performed like a champ.
I also tested about 5 similar blades that all passed with differing degrees of satisfaction. In fact, I took one right from the quench--no temper at all--and it still passed the 90 degree bend. Pretty much idiot proof, and I would know
John
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i went with 5160 did all my testing on the same bar and like John i followed ED Caffrey's instructions and had no problems. i think 5160 is one of the easiest to pass with
Dave
Dave
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I couldn't agree more, Nick. Knives that just "bend" with relative ease without breaking reveal very little in my book.
Joe, I forged my knife down from heavy stock. Following full forging, the knives were given three fully autstenized quenches in room temp Tex "A", followed by three reducing heat normalizing cycles.
Then, like Nick did with his 52100, they got a full spherodizing anneal overnight in my Evenheat - not a Paragon?
Ground to full finish.
A little homemade anti-scale and then they got a austenizing soak for 20 minutes at 1525.
About 50-60% blade-width-quench in 150 degree Tex "A".
Three 350 degree 2 hour tempering cycles.
It took a three foot cheater bar for me to get those things to bend. I really could barely insult them using only my hands and body weight.
They returned to 18 degrees of straight.
I remember Don Hanson posting that he had a new found respect for 5160 after witnessing my testing.
And, by the way, Joe, why are you waiting till now to get these made?
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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Well, because I just recently decided that I was going to try for JS this coming year
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Good for you, man.
I hope to shake your hand!
I hope to shake your hand!
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Joe, I have been teaching people how to go about it for a little while now and I would ask what I normally would- are you out to pass the test or impress yourself or them (unlikely) with more than the test asks for?*
All they want is a bent knife in the end, nowhere does it stipulate how far back to true it has to go or how much of radius the bend has incorporate. You are already compromising strength for ductility so why make it harder on yourself? The closer to 90 degrees it stays and the tighter the radius it can** do, the more ductility it has and the less chance of cracking there will be, and cracking all the way through is the only thing it cannot do.
Here is how I would "teach the test” in my intro course- They want bent, so give them bent. Use the laws of physics to your advantage! But first, steel selection...
In order to have a narrow zone of "real" knife right along the edge that can do the chopping and rope cutting and a wide strip of silly putty along the back for bending, you will want a steel capable of easily obtaining these two extremes in heat treating. It should not surprise you that I am going to say something different than most of the others here and that 5160 would not be my first choice, since it is deep hardening; think hamons! I used 5160 for my J.S. knife and had things better figured out for my M.S. steel mix. I would go for a 10XX series steel, 1095 would work well if you can control the carbides but the safest bet is 1075, 1080 or 1084. Spheroidize the blade! Pearlite lamellae can propagate cracks more efficiently than can cementite spheroids in ferrite; this is self evident by the number of people who are convinced a blade loaded with pearlite is fully hard because it broke like it was totally martensitic.
Do the Japanese thing but go overboard to protect those spheroidal particles, put the clay on nice and thick (black furnace cement is your best friend), in any hamon formation the clay acts in two ways, insulative from the heat, and insulative from the cooling, on this one you will be skewing things in towards the prior. Heat treat the thing as you would any other clayed blade and then draw several tempers in the oven (hint: don’t de afraid to go a little higher than normal, you would be surprised how soft a blade can be and still chop 2X4 and shave) .
Now for knife design- they stipulate every dimension except thickness, this is your ace in the hole! A thinner blade will require less tensile/compressive forces in the bend and thus more easily avoid exceeding ultimate strength (“crack!”, and here is where the wide radius and returning to true come into play. A fillet knife 10” long will go to 90 and return to true much quicker than a ¼” thick bowie due to the substantially less tensile or compressive loads it will have to endure in order to flex, so it may even be possible to avoid the yield point (no permanent bend!). Every .001 of an inch you add to the thickness takes you that much closer to failure, so the trick is to find the thinnest cross section that will still allow you to chop the 2x4 reasonably well. Remember what I am always harping on- the flex of a spring is not determined by the heat treat it is determined by its thickness, how it fails once it stops flexing is in the heat treatment, so just be certain it doesn’t stopping flexing and the heat treatment loses its relevancy. I hate it when somebody comes to test under me and produces this thick-spined monstrosity as the chances of somebody getting hurt that day just went up exponentially. :grumpy:
Also they say the blade can be no wider than 2” but that means you can be 1.999”, the wider the blade the more distance a crack has to travel then the more area you can leave spheroidized!
Also remember that the only part of the test that you cannot practice with using the very test knife is the bend, so it is logical to make that your focal point and main concern, and then simply insure that the others can be done before you go for it.
*It should come as no surprise that the best way to impress me is to present a perfectly straight knife and say you could not perform the test since both you and the mastersmith were hanging on the end of a 4 foot cheater bar and knew it was going to break eventually but got tired of trying.
**"Can" is the operative word since you want it to be able to crease to a sharp 90 but you want to keep the curve as wide as possible to stay within the safety zone.
All they want is a bent knife in the end, nowhere does it stipulate how far back to true it has to go or how much of radius the bend has incorporate. You are already compromising strength for ductility so why make it harder on yourself? The closer to 90 degrees it stays and the tighter the radius it can** do, the more ductility it has and the less chance of cracking there will be, and cracking all the way through is the only thing it cannot do.
Here is how I would "teach the test” in my intro course- They want bent, so give them bent. Use the laws of physics to your advantage! But first, steel selection...
In order to have a narrow zone of "real" knife right along the edge that can do the chopping and rope cutting and a wide strip of silly putty along the back for bending, you will want a steel capable of easily obtaining these two extremes in heat treating. It should not surprise you that I am going to say something different than most of the others here and that 5160 would not be my first choice, since it is deep hardening; think hamons! I used 5160 for my J.S. knife and had things better figured out for my M.S. steel mix. I would go for a 10XX series steel, 1095 would work well if you can control the carbides but the safest bet is 1075, 1080 or 1084. Spheroidize the blade! Pearlite lamellae can propagate cracks more efficiently than can cementite spheroids in ferrite; this is self evident by the number of people who are convinced a blade loaded with pearlite is fully hard because it broke like it was totally martensitic.
Do the Japanese thing but go overboard to protect those spheroidal particles, put the clay on nice and thick (black furnace cement is your best friend), in any hamon formation the clay acts in two ways, insulative from the heat, and insulative from the cooling, on this one you will be skewing things in towards the prior. Heat treat the thing as you would any other clayed blade and then draw several tempers in the oven (hint: don’t de afraid to go a little higher than normal, you would be surprised how soft a blade can be and still chop 2X4 and shave
) . Now for knife design- they stipulate every dimension except thickness, this is your ace in the hole! A thinner blade will require less tensile/compressive forces in the bend and thus more easily avoid exceeding ultimate strength (“crack!”
, and here is where the wide radius and returning to true come into play. A fillet knife 10” long will go to 90 and return to true much quicker than a ¼” thick bowie due to the substantially less tensile or compressive loads it will have to endure in order to flex, so it may even be possible to avoid the yield point (no permanent bend!). Every .001 of an inch you add to the thickness takes you that much closer to failure, so the trick is to find the thinnest cross section that will still allow you to chop the 2x4 reasonably well. Remember what I am always harping on- the flex of a spring is not determined by the heat treat it is determined by its thickness, how it fails once it stops flexing is in the heat treatment, so just be certain it doesn’t stopping flexing and the heat treatment loses its relevancy. I hate it when somebody comes to test under me and produces this thick-spined monstrosity as the chances of somebody getting hurt that day just went up exponentially. :grumpy:Also they say the blade can be no wider than 2” but that means you can be 1.999”, the wider the blade the more distance a crack has to travel then the more area you can leave spheroidized!
Also remember that the only part of the test that you cannot practice with using the very test knife is the bend, so it is logical to make that your focal point and main concern, and then simply insure that the others can be done before you go for it.
*It should come as no surprise that the best way to impress me is to present a perfectly straight knife and say you could not perform the test since both you and the mastersmith were hanging on the end of a 4 foot cheater bar and knew it was going to break eventually but got tired of trying.
**"Can" is the operative word since you want it to be able to crease to a sharp 90 but you want to keep the curve as wide as possible to stay within the safety zone.
Last edited:
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As far as the JS performance test goes....
Do what these guys say....
ONe of the things I hve done when I am interested in making test knives, is to forge two similiar knives, then treat them exactly alike. (as much as that is possible.)
Then you can test the hell out of one knife. Really push it hard.
Once you absolutely know that the abused knife will pass you can be confident that the untouched knife will perform in a similiar way, and you can take that one to the test.
Its a bit more work, but if you are worried about passing it is just a bit of insurance.
Also a word about getting ready for the test. I would suggest that since the test calls for a knife that will vcut a 2X4 twice and still shave...you aim for a blade that will cut the 2X4 10 times...or even 20...or 40.
Wonder why? Even though it is not necessary, it is good to be known as the guy who brought in a "doozy" of a knife! IMHO Testing masters love to see guys who really love what they do and work hard to make a good knife. I have been a round when I hear them talk to other MS's. It is good to get a reputation as a top dog, instead of somebody who squeaks by with a forged lawn mower blade.
Did that makes sense?
As far as the performance test itself, remember that each test is designed to test specific characteristics, and show that you know how to manipulate the different aspects of knifemaking. I say this because I have seen some folks be able to forge and HT a knife really well, but can't shape a good edge...or even worse don't know how to handle it well enough to get through the test.
I saw a guy work at cutting the manila rope one time. He was holding the rope in the air with one hand, whilst he swung the knife with the other. It was spooky to watch, and I was waiting for the sound of steel on bone contact. Luckily it did not happen.
Also I have seen a few guys who were passed even after their blade cracked. Since the cutting edge was not affected, only the body of the knife. It would take a LOT to botch the test with a well forged and ht'd knife out of 5160.
Prolly this all seems like useless information, but I just wanted to state the obvious, because that is the part that is often overlooked.
Good luck.
Shane
Do what these guys say....
ONe of the things I hve done when I am interested in making test knives, is to forge two similiar knives, then treat them exactly alike. (as much as that is possible.)
Then you can test the hell out of one knife. Really push it hard.
Once you absolutely know that the abused knife will pass you can be confident that the untouched knife will perform in a similiar way, and you can take that one to the test.
Its a bit more work, but if you are worried about passing it is just a bit of insurance.
Also a word about getting ready for the test. I would suggest that since the test calls for a knife that will vcut a 2X4 twice and still shave...you aim for a blade that will cut the 2X4 10 times...or even 20...or 40.
Wonder why? Even though it is not necessary, it is good to be known as the guy who brought in a "doozy" of a knife! IMHO Testing masters love to see guys who really love what they do and work hard to make a good knife. I have been a round when I hear them talk to other MS's. It is good to get a reputation as a top dog, instead of somebody who squeaks by with a forged lawn mower blade.
Did that makes sense?
As far as the performance test itself, remember that each test is designed to test specific characteristics, and show that you know how to manipulate the different aspects of knifemaking. I say this because I have seen some folks be able to forge and HT a knife really well, but can't shape a good edge...or even worse don't know how to handle it well enough to get through the test.
I saw a guy work at cutting the manila rope one time. He was holding the rope in the air with one hand, whilst he swung the knife with the other. It was spooky to watch, and I was waiting for the sound of steel on bone contact. Luckily it did not happen.
Also I have seen a few guys who were passed even after their blade cracked. Since the cutting edge was not affected, only the body of the knife. It would take a LOT to botch the test with a well forged and ht'd knife out of 5160.
Prolly this all seems like useless information, but I just wanted to state the obvious, because that is the part that is often overlooked.
Good luck.
Shane
- Joined
- Nov 13, 1998
- Messages
- 2,598
Here is a horror story for ya. About 10 years ago I drove from Biloxi to Jasper. Went to Don Foggs to take my JS test. Brought a few knives for Don to inspect, he said they all looked good, he especially liked a big Bowie I had.
Go to the performance test, 2x4 chop no problem, chopped through twice. Rope cut, no problem, cut rope 3-4 times... snick.. snick... snick....
Bend test... clamp blade in vice, wait for Dons "go", bend the knife 90, no problem, then this is where it goes wrong..... in my head I think "well im gonna just keep bending" So I keep pulling,the blade goes well past 90, hits the edge of vice jaws....
PING
blade snaps in 2, I deflate, feel stupid, get a bit mad at myself for essentially being a smart ass and trying to show I could wrap the blade around the anvil.
My point in all this is to stop bending at 90, or when the person giving the test tells you to stop
I think im going to re test this year, should have years ago just never got to it.
Go to the performance test, 2x4 chop no problem, chopped through twice. Rope cut, no problem, cut rope 3-4 times... snick.. snick... snick....
Bend test... clamp blade in vice, wait for Dons "go", bend the knife 90, no problem, then this is where it goes wrong..... in my head I think "well im gonna just keep bending" So I keep pulling,the blade goes well past 90, hits the edge of vice jaws....
PING
blade snaps in 2, I deflate, feel stupid, get a bit mad at myself for essentially being a smart ass and trying to show I could wrap the blade around the anvil.
My point in all this is to stop bending at 90, or when the person giving the test tells you to stop
I think im going to re test this year, should have years ago just never got to it.
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At the time I didnt know there was any other steels besides 5160 so thats what I used. I forged 2 of them exactly alike and heated them in my forge until a magnet wouldnt stick and edge quenched them in Texaco A oil. I did this twice because the first time the line was too high not really knowing the benefits of multipal quenches. I ground off the scale and threw them both in the oven at 325 degrees for 1 hour and let them cool in there with the door open 3 times. I had a nice straw color so I was good to go. I cleaned them both up on the fine belt and adjusted the distal tapers a little with fresh belts so as not to over heat anything.
Both were full tang and pretty thick at the spine and handle. At Waynes The other guys for the actual test showed up with these thin beautiful blades. Mine looked rude and crude in comparison. At home my first blade worked great and cut the rope two by fours, shaved hair and bent fine with my long cheater bar without breaking so I had confidence that my other one would. It passed fine but took all my effort to bend it with Waynes shorter cheater bar. The thin blades bent much easier. Take your time on that bend. Go slow with no sudden moves.
Both were full tang and pretty thick at the spine and handle. At Waynes The other guys for the actual test showed up with these thin beautiful blades. Mine looked rude and crude in comparison. At home my first blade worked great and cut the rope two by fours, shaved hair and bent fine with my long cheater bar without breaking so I had confidence that my other one would. It passed fine but took all my effort to bend it with Waynes shorter cheater bar. The thin blades bent much easier. Take your time on that bend. Go slow with no sudden moves.
Last edited:
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Listen to Kevin! There is much wisdom in his words. My opinion and experience has proven that trying to impress the individual conducting your test does nothing relative for you....but more often than not it winds up with you being embarrassed.
Remember that you are building a knife to pass a given set of circumstances, and if the blade meets that set of circumstances, it passes...there are no "brownie points" for anything beyond that. I've tested individuals who's blade ended up in a nice smooth arc, and others looked creased when the bending was done.....but both passed. The rules for testing don't differentiate. My biggest concern when someone calls me to ask for a testing date is to ensure they have read the testing rules, and FULLY understand them. I have had individuals show up with blades that exceeded the length limits, both for blade and overall, as well as width limits...obviously those were no test scenarios.
Building your test blade is not a time to experiment or try to impress people....unless you want to do it all a second time. And finally, the best way to impress the judges at the Blade show is to build knives of simple design, that are executed superbly.
Remember that you are building a knife to pass a given set of circumstances, and if the blade meets that set of circumstances, it passes...there are no "brownie points" for anything beyond that. I've tested individuals who's blade ended up in a nice smooth arc, and others looked creased when the bending was done.....but both passed. The rules for testing don't differentiate. My biggest concern when someone calls me to ask for a testing date is to ensure they have read the testing rules, and FULLY understand them. I have had individuals show up with blades that exceeded the length limits, both for blade and overall, as well as width limits...obviously those were no test scenarios.
Building your test blade is not a time to experiment or try to impress people....unless you want to do it all a second time. And finally, the best way to impress the judges at the Blade show is to build knives of simple design, that are executed superbly.
Last edited:
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Excellent point Matt, and it completely rienforces my point of- are you out to pass the test or are you out to impress yourself or others? This also goes for the 5 knives you take to Atlanta- K.I.S.S.! It is the number one rule to remember! If you set out to stand out and impress those judges the odds are overwhelming that you will not impress but you will indeed stand out! Personally, when I am a judge and somebody's knives are begging me to look at them more than any others in the room, I am more than happy to oblige!
Simple elegance with clean execution will get to a stamp everytime! Gilding the lily will invite scrutiny you do not want! Even if you say you want to win that special award, (Hughes, Peck), I have participated in choosing that award enough to tell you that extra embelishements or elaborate designs never weighed as heavily as elegance and form following function.
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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LOL.....NOW you tell me this, Kevin
I have had a thin 1 3/4 inch wide full tang 1084 blade with no plunge cuts (big smooth transition) on my ebcnh for months, but I was worried that I couldn't keep the back soft enough and still get the edge hard!!!!
The funny part is that I just forged out a big 5160 blade today from some leftover thick stock that I had gotten from Uncle Al long ago. I had to thin it down from 3/8 to 1/4 as I went along....sheesh!!!! Like I said, I'm glad to hear that the 1084/clay trick will work because I am not set up to quench 5160. I have 10 gallons of Parks #50 and that's it!!! I also happen to have a goodly amount of Aldo's 1084, so it sound like I am set. The existing knife gets to be the guinea pig. I have a LOT of trouble finding furnace cemtn down her for obvious reasons. The fireplace store where I got it before went under. I have Satanite. Will that work okay?
I have had a thin 1 3/4 inch wide full tang 1084 blade with no plunge cuts (big smooth transition) on my ebcnh for months, but I was worried that I couldn't keep the back soft enough and still get the edge hard!!!! The funny part is that I just forged out a big 5160 blade today from some leftover thick stock that I had gotten from Uncle Al long ago. I had to thin it down from 3/8 to 1/4 as I went along....sheesh!!!! Like I said, I'm glad to hear that the 1084/clay trick will work because I am not set up to quench 5160. I have 10 gallons of Parks #50 and that's it!!! I also happen to have a goodly amount of Aldo's 1084, so it sound like I am set. The existing knife gets to be the guinea pig. I have a LOT of trouble finding furnace cemtn down her for obvious reasons. The fireplace store where I got it before went under. I have Satanite. Will that work okay?- Joined
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I know a JS that passed his test with 1095. The hardened area was probably only about 1/4", it was small enough you probably couldn't resharpen the blade. He passed and that's what counts.
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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Kevin...would W2 be too risky? I know that stuff best and I have a thin annealed blade that i messed up so I decided to see how soft the steel got. It was like taffy. I stuck it in the vise and got 6 bends in a 6 inch hidden tang blade by hand, including one that was 150 degrees.
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Depends on the carbon content of the W2, if it is in the upper ranges the same applies as for 1095, you will do fine if you can handle those carbides correctly. If those carbides get out of hand on you, then they will be a liability in that bend.
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Good info and I can't add much. But remember, Joe;
Thin is In.......don't do thick!
Save the W2 for cuttin and use a lesser carbon steel for bending.
I used L6 from Admiral before I knew it was not L6......it passed
I once saw an edge quenched, thick, 5160 blade break into with the sound of a rifle shot.
I would have lost money, had I place a bet.... I did not think it would break!
Have fun, Joe!
Thin is In.......don't do thick!
Save the W2 for cuttin and use a lesser carbon steel for bending.
I used L6 from Admiral before I knew it was not L6......it passed
I once saw an edge quenched, thick, 5160 blade break into with the sound of a rifle shot.
I would have lost money, had I place a bet.... I did not think it would break!
Have fun, Joe!