Juan seguin bowie

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sswells36

Joined
Apr 2, 2006
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I know the topic has been beaten to death in some circles and heated discussions by the thousands over what was the actual knife carried by Jim Bowie at the Alamo. But I have a nagging question that I just cannot shake. The knife known as the Juan Seguin Bowie was for a while the front runner for a knife that may have been one of the knives owned by Jim Bowie at the end of his life. I believe there were several, I think his taste in knives and changes in it's design grew as his legend did. This knife was tested at one point for the silver content where it was marked by Searless and found not to be of the right content for the era. No one ever tested the blade or the handle or anything else and the knife disappeared into history as a fake. However, when you look at the design of the knife next to Searless bowies made about the time that everyone wanted "a knife like Bowies" and the fact that the handle is a dead ringer for the one in his famous painting (a better match than the "family sword" that it is attributed to) And throw in the fact that it is believed that Seguin used Bowies horse and saddle when he was sent for help..... Would it be too far a leap to suppose that he may have had one of Bowies valued blades with him....
What I'm saying is this.... is it possible that someone may have had an authentic knife... but in order to increase interest in the blade attempted to tie the Bowie to a known maker like Searless and in so doing ruined the knife. The Searless mark could be a forgery and the knife could be genuine. If that sounds to crazy take another look at the blade design and compare it to the known design characteristics associated to Bowie
 
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sswells36 said:
I know the topic has been beaten to death in some circles and heated discussions by the thousands over what was the actual knife carried by Jim Bowie at the Alamo. But I have a nagging question that I just cannot shake. The knife known as the Juan Seguin Bowie was for a while the front runner for a knife that may have been one of the knives owned by Jim Bowie at the end of his life. I believe there were several, I think his taste in knives and changes in it's design grew as his legend did. This knife was tested at one point for the silver content where it was marked by Searless and found not to be of the right content for the era. No one ever tested the blade or the handle or anything else and the knife disappeared into history as a fake. However, when you look at the design of the knife next to Searless bowies made about the time that everyone wanted "a knife like Bowies" and the fact that the handle is a dead ringer for the one in his famous painting (a better match than the "family sword" that it is attributed to) And throw in the fact that it is believed that Seguin used Bowies horse and saddle when he was sent for help..... Would it be too far a leap to suppose that he may have had one of Bowies valued blades with him....
What I'm saying is this.... is it possible that someone may have had an authentic knife... but in order to increase interest in the blade attempted to tie the Bowie to a known maker like Searless and in so doing ruined the knife. The Searless mark could be a forgery and the knife could be genuine. If that sounds to crazy take another look at the blade design and compare it to the known design characteristics associated to Bowie
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I know this thread was written a long time ago but I believe you are exactly correct. The Juan Seguin knife IS the knife Bowie is holding in his portrait and that it is the knife he carried daily and to the Alamo. Knowing he was not going to survive, gave the knife to Seguin, along with his horse and saddle. The knives Candalaria had were much too small for Jim Bowie to do anything with besides clean his fingernails.
 
Pics of the seguin knife and the portrait may help prove a point.
 
A picture can be found here.


I guess it depends on what you consider to be "the" bowie knife. Personally, I think that the one used in the sandbar fight is the bowie knife. The Seguin bowie certainly isn't that one. Could the Seguin knife be a knife owned by Bowie? Sure anything is possible, but I think it's telling that there is no record from Seguin himself saying that Bowie gave him the knife. That's a little detail you would think someone might mention, especially since he did mention the horse and saddle.

Combine that with the known historical problems and the unwillingness of the owner to allow further testing and there are starting to be a lot of things that make you go "hmmm."

I could have a knife with a handle based on the one in the Bowie picture made today. So similarity to that picture is unconvincing.

So, yes its possible, and maybe even slightly more plausible than some of the more ridiculous candidates but there is no chain of convincing provenance and entirely too much speculation required to make a convincing case.
 
Jimbowie.jpg
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Seguin%2BBowie.jpg
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The Candelaria knife -
villanueva_andrea_madam_candelaria_knife.jpg
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Style is too late and much too different for it to be Bowie's knife.
 
At least what they taught me in school was Jim Bowie did not fight in the Alamo. He was deathly ill and was in bed dying. And that's where he was killed. I hope the teacher knew what he was talking about. Can somebody please enlighten me if this is true or false?
 
Vlade said:
At least what they taught me in school was Jim Bowie did not fight in the Alamo. He was deathly ill and was in bed dying. And that's where he was killed. I hope the teacher knew what he was talking about. Can somebody please enlighten me if this is true or false?
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As far as we know that is true. Bowie was sick and bed ridden for most of the time.
 
Bowie and his brother Rezin had many knives made. More than likely he had the bird’s head knife made also. There’s only one likeness of him and he’s holding it, so it must have been important to him. There were and are many Mexican knives with bird head pommels that later sold as souvenirs but did Bowie get his from a vendor in a border town? Some say he’s holding the family sword. The sword looks nothing like the birds head knife. I think some people will deny clear cut evidence just to keep a debate alive and have something to talk about. So how did it become known as the Seguin knife? I guess someone saw it one day and said, “I bet Jim Bowie gave that knife to Juan Seguin!”. So how did that come about? It’s thought that he gave Seguin his horse and saddle? It doesn’t say he gave him the bit and reins too. So do we assume the horse had a bit in his mouth with reins attached? Just as he could have given him the knife? When there’s no concrete proof, everything becomes speculation. I, along with many others, believe he retired the sandbar knife in favor of a more usable design, a design that was more useful in a knife fight. One with a hand guard. Every account of the Sandbar Knife says it was nothing more than a big butcher knife. The only difference was Jesse Clifft dropped the blade at the handle so the hand wouldn’t slip forward. Being there was no guard would make the knife a poor candidate for parrying. Some say James Black of Arkansas never met Jim Bowie and never made him a knife. Some say Norris Wright was the only man he ever killed with a knife. Some say Neil Armstrong never went to the moon and some believe that the earth is flat. My point exactly.
 
crich58 said:
Bowie and his brother Rezin had many knives made. More than likely he had the bird’s head knife made also. There’s only one likeness of him and he’s holding it, so it must have been important to him. There were and are many Mexican knives with bird head pommels that later sold as souvenirs but did Bowie get his from a vendor in a border town? Some say he’s holding the family sword. The sword looks nothing like the birds head knife. I think some people will deny clear cut evidence just to keep a debate alive and have something to talk about. So how did it become known as the Seguin knife? I guess someone saw it one day and said, “I bet Jim Bowie gave that knife to Juan Seguin!”. So how did that come about? It’s thought that he gave Seguin his horse and saddle? It doesn’t say he gave him the bit and reins too. So do we assume the horse had a bit in his mouth with reins attached? Just as he could have given him the knife? When there’s no concrete proof, everything becomes speculation. I, along with many others, believe he retired the sandbar knife in favor of a more usable design, a design that was more useful in a knife fight. One with a hand guard. Every account of the Sandbar Knife says it was nothing more than a big butcher knife. The only difference was Jesse Clifft dropped the blade at the handle so the hand wouldn’t slip forward. Being there was no guard would make the knife a poor candidate for parrying. Some say James Black of Arkansas never met Jim Bowie and never made him a knife. Some say Norris Wright was the only man he ever killed with a knife. Some say Neil Armstrong never went to the moon and some believe that the earth is flat. My point exactly.
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Next moon landing NASA needs to have a lunar bowie for the crew. Stab it into the ground next to the 2nd flag we plant.
 
crich58 said:
Bowie and his brother Rezin had many knives made. More than likely he had the bird’s head knife made also. There’s only one likeness of him and he’s holding it, so it must have been important to him. There were and are many Mexican knives with bird head pommels that later sold as souvenirs but did Bowie get his from a vendor in a border town? Some say he’s holding the family sword. The sword looks nothing like the birds head knife. I think some people will deny clear cut evidence just to keep a debate alive and have something to talk about. So how did it become known as the Seguin knife? I guess someone saw it one day and said, “I bet Jim Bowie gave that knife to Juan Seguin!”. So how did that come about? It’s thought that he gave Seguin his horse and saddle? It doesn’t say he gave him the bit and reins too. So do we assume the horse had a bit in his mouth with reins attached? Just as he could have given him the knife? When there’s no concrete proof, everything becomes speculation. I, along with many others, believe he retired the sandbar knife in favor of a more usable design, a design that was more useful in a knife fight. One with a hand guard. Every account of the Sandbar Knife says it was nothing more than a big butcher knife. The only difference was Jesse Clifft dropped the blade at the handle so the hand wouldn’t slip forward. Being there was no guard would make the knife a poor candidate for parrying. Some say James Black of Arkansas never met Jim Bowie and never made him a knife. Some say Norris Wright was the only man he ever killed with a knife. Some say Neil Armstrong never went to the moon and some believe that the earth is flat. My point exactly.
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Jim and Rezin did have many knives of various configurations made that's a provable fact.

The picture referenced doesn't show Bowle holding a knife only a hilt.
There are many knives that have been made and are still being made in Mexico that feature Eagle heads that is a provable fact.
That someone could have a knife made to match the hilt in the picture at any time since the picture was painted is a provable fact..
That when silver solder on the knife was tested it proved to be too new for a knife belonging to Bowie is a provable fact.
That the owner will not allow any further testing is a provable fact.
That is the actual facts as I understand them.

That Bowie ever purchased such a knife is speculation and unprovable.

That Bowie ever gave any knife to Seguin is speculation and unprovable.

The name means nothing, one could pick an old knife and call it the Moses Rose or Joe Travis bowie (both men who might have survived the Alamo) and claim that your great great etc. Grandfather won the knife from Bowie while playing mumbelty peg. Its a good story and more reasonable than some stories ( I'm looking at you Joe Musso) but its just a story not something that's provable.
 
What we know is that the Sandbar fight happened. And what we know is that the knife used in that fight was something like either the Forest knife or the Clifft knife. We also know that he was at the alamo and died there. He was sick there. We don't know what knife he had there and who ended up with it. The chances of any knife he had not going directly to Santana or with a mexican soldier is pretty slim. Who ever killed him likely grabbed the knife and made off with it. Anything else is guesswork. Did Seguin get a knife from Bowie. I would be surprised if Bowie only carried one knife on his travels. So Seguin could have gotten a second knife. It is also well documented that the gambling fight happened. Sounds like either the clifft or forrest knife design were used for that. I do believe that Rezin Bowie was just trying to capitalize off his brothers fame by selling knives in all kinds of shapes. All those crazy clip point bowies which are now the norm, were fantasy knives likely propagated by Rezin to make money. What I find funny is that in the 1951 book, "The Iron Mistress" Resin is nothing. That book was written when much of the history of that time was still available with people that were one gen removed from the event. Yet, Rezin was nothing. Was he the used car salesman in the family? likely.
 
I know Rezin gave a few knives to friends but this is the first time I've ever heard of him being in the knife selling business. What proof of that is there? I've also never heard of him being connected to the various clip point bowies that came later.
 
Sidehill Gouger said:
I know Rezin gave a few knives to friends but this is the first time I've ever heard of him being in the knife selling business. What proof of that is there? I've also never heard of him being connected to the various clip point bowies that came later.
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Proof? No. That past is murky. But the consensus over many years has been that Rezin cashed in on his brothers fame, even going so far s to claim he made the knives, when most were commissioned to real smiths including a smith down in Texas, whose name escapes me now. But the number I remember that floats around was around 400 knives mostly sold and many given away by Rezin.
 
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