Judgements towards kit knives

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Jun 16, 2008
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Hello, I came across a fella selling knives at the flea market , while searching around for a vice ( found an awesome mid size old vise). Anyway this guy was selling kit knives knives calling them custom and hand hand made. I got to talking to him-he didn't know what terms like heat treating,tempering or even what the difference between grinds are . My first thought was this guy is a shamster. He was selling the knives at fairly high prices. Well, at first as was a bit judgemental but I soon thought - what the heck-to all there own.
I did get a bit upset that a novice like me takes sometime 3 - 4 days to make one knife( but then again, I take my time) and I still give some knives away but when I do sell- its very affordable. I did the 50 knives thing, and I'm almost on the level to feel confident to sell at higher prices. I really appreciate all the mistakes I made-it helped me get a clearer understanding on both the mechanical and the aesthetics aspects.It's alot of work but very worthwhile.
I guess what upsets initially was that this fella didn't do too much in making the knife, yet he called custom hand made knives. No stamp at that..oh well, to all there own.
Any thoughts-thank you-Mark
 
If they're indeed kit blades, he's a liar and basically a thief. Not to mention an insult to people who actually forge and/or grind their own blades.

There is nothing wrong at all about putting handles on pre-made blades if one is upfront about it.
 
Custom Hand Assembled. At least he wasn't stamping them. Did he freely offer up the fact that he didn't make the blades or did you have to talk it out of him?
 
Custom Hand Assembled. At least he wasn't stamping them. Did he freely offer up the fact that he didn't make the blades or did you have to talk it out of him?

Hello, to make a short story shorter, Yes, i asked him some specific questions and he didnt go out and say he ordered the knives,. I dont think he thought is was a big deal. he was taking orders for custom made knives that he had on his table ( he would just order the same blade- i presume). He offered different handle material for his customers. There would be no way of knowing that his knives came from a kit. The only way i found out was to ask him some specific questions after hearing his spiel. Folks would not have known unless they new what to ask. To most they were custom hand made knives. The guy didnt think it was that big of a deal , after me getting to the point,and felt ok stating the were " custom handmade knives. --Thanks-Mark
 
Fraud. Selling kit knives as anything other than assembled kits is fraud. Pure and simple. I know there are folks on this forum who do and this will piss them off, their opinion is irrelevant.

-Page
 
Folks are always amazed that my pocket knife is a kit knife. I did a little tuning and some other work on it, but it's a kit with the stock blade and even the stock handle pieces. It works well, didn't cost me a ton... It is what it is, just like the kitchen knives I've done for folks. I try out the product and if I think it's good I am willing to build it into my own finished product and sell it, but I don't try to present it as 100% my work. I joke that the knife I use the most of any that I own is not even my own blade.
 
There are makers who do it and have been doing it for years. It is easier for us as makers to pick them out because we see the supply catalogs they get their blades from. I can pick out cheap damascus from across the room, unfortunately the public does not know the difference.

Eventually the buying public becomes informed buyers and learn what not to buy.

The only time success comes before work is in the Dictionary!
 
I don't make knives, but I buy and use them. If someone sold me a kit knife as a "custom hand made knife" at a custom price, I would be very upset to say the least. From your story, he is clearly trying to pass these off as handmade knives and does not want to be up front about the fact that all he did was shape some handles for it. "Custom assembled knives" might be more accurate.
 
I have no problem with folks doing custom handles and fittings on prefab blades as long as they are transparent about it.
 
As a novice maker, I can relate on a couple levels...
Over the past two years, varied random customers would ask about pricing on a knife, usually fairly detailed pieces, and balked at the price before rejoining by asking if I'd instead use a prepared blank they'd found elsewhere. This generally sparks three distinct feelings:
The first is a bit of a sting--not from ego, but my first run in with a knife "dealer." Like you, I was at a flea market hoping to find tools (tongs, leg vice, and anvil, my three constant hunts) when I saw the guy's booth--typical Bud K and discount "knife warehouse" import stuff despite having some nicer models by brand names. One display case had some nice stainless cutlery which was touted as "custom hand made" that quickly became apparent as kits. I finally got the guy to admit as much when I, at his request, fetched a couple pieces I had in my truck to drop off with customers on the return trip, including a couple of cable damascus and knives made from L6. His confession came while inspecting my pieces as a couple of his evidently repeat customers suddenly took an interest in my knives--to wit, the guy started in by criticizing my knives...heavily. Everything from the finish (too shiny) to accusing me of faking damascus (in his words there's no way a single burner could produce damascus) and broke out several pieces from the case to show me how what he had was superior--his argument being burl and mosaic pins qualities that shamed the antler or micarta and stainless pins on mine. He then spouted off about how the "problem with knife makers is there's no room for dealers to make a profit" when everything we make can be had for much more reasonable prices from Smokey Mountain Knife Works, and where I cornered him on fessing up they'd been kits from SMKW. His insults stung, had his criticism had been directed towards rue flaws in my work, it'd have been one thing, but the fact was he was just trying to talk me down over the fact he knew his custom pieces had just been publicly noted as anything but truly custom.
Now, I have no problem with SMKW, I'm sure they're nice folks who do their best to suit their customers, and if one of my customers brought me, say, a couple of antler slabs from them and asked I'd use them on the knife they ordered, then I'd have no problem with that, however, if they brought me a blade or chunk of their brand damascus (as opposed to a particular monosteel) then I'd say no. The damascus is easy enough--it's Pakistani produced, and I've no idea as to the quality, before I dump time and effort into a piece, I'd like to know what I'm working with will work like something produced by Alabama D.

The knife blank itself brings me to my second and third reason--reason number 2. When I was just starting out, a customer who had bought two other pieces and was eager to add a chef's knife to that set was too anxious to save up what I'd told him it would cost. Likewise, the guy has been very eager to help my business by either referral or by gifting me stuff, such as a few pounds of steel and welding a piece of AR500 on top of my ASO. So, when he came to me very sheepishy and showed me a chef's knife he'd bought from a kit site along with some cocobolo and asked if he could pay me to install the handles, I kind of felt bad saying no...and immediately regretted it. The mass produced blade had plenty of flaws, such as a twisted, unevenly tapered tang, poorly soldered bolsters, and asymmetrical (read that as poor and unintentional) grinds to name a few. What I thought a quick and easy job turned into a terrible headache fixing the flaws--my task was a mere day's work, but it took four days to fix everything else. That was my one and only time working a kit knife. Which is why, unless the blade is from another reputable maker and part of an agreed collaborative work, that I won't work prefab blades--that's not what the customer is paying for...
And that is the third reason: the customer.
I've come to appreciate my customers, not that I didn't before, but I'll explain--I've had two moments where I worried about customer reaction, most recently when I had a weird fail with 1095, and several months ago while working on an order of 15 damascus knives for a marine recon unit. I'd stress fractured my medius (middle) finger's base joint on my right hand while forging out the initial damascus billets. With the time window I had to complete the order I was worried I'd miss my ship date and contacted the customer, fairy certain I was in for a chewing out and threats...instead I was given a commissary pat on the back...and they offered to go ahead and pay for the shipment if it would have helped have someone else make the damascus. I turned them down, forged ahead, and beat my deadline by two days because of that consideration and concern for me.

My customers are paying for a fully custom piece--regardless if it's forged or stock ground. They know which process will be used ahead of time and may be the one to select which if it will help their budget. they know that despite how the blade is made, that after the initial bevels are ground, I still sit there with a sen to make sure those bevels are dead set even. As makers we each have our unique brand of voodoo, whether we hang a crawfish from the forge or harness the power of rainbows--part of the reason out customers buy our knives is they are at once mystified by the metallurgy and inspired by those that manage it to produce a work of art.
What we do is art and I for one won't cheapen my art/work by sneaking in a kit knife for a quick buck--I'm not in this for the money, just as I didn't become a college English instructor for wealth and fame. I do what I do (teaching and making) because I love it, if I wanted to be rich, I'd have studied to become an engineer or something else which would possibly put me in 6 figures.
It's also what separates us from the guys who disguise kits as custom--we're not going to balk at a customer coming back and saying something like, "I really loved what you did with this piece, but can you do one with a handle shaped like a fish?" Quite the contrary, whereas a kit-making plagiarist (and that's what it is when you claim another's work as your own and without giving them due credit) will offer up any excuse why they can't or won't, most of us would jump on the chance for an interesting challenge.
I can't and won't abide by lying to my customers--if I don't make something that goes into the knife, they're told. It doesn't matter if it's a mosaic pin--if it's mine, it's mine, but if I buy one from Jantz or Sally Martin, you better believe that's mentioned. And partly because a flea market sham artist told me forging damascus was a wasted attempt.
 
It does get get tricky when people are assembling knives, because there are a lot of hand ground blanks out there being made by custom knifemakers who sell them for people to assemble.

So a guy installs a handle on a handground blade it is a hand made knife. It just is not hand made by the guy who put the handle on it.

We run into the same thing in the custom flyrod buisness. I make split cane bamboo rods from raw material. Every piece is something I make from cane, wood, nickel silver etc. It is a hand made rod. But there are a lot of guys buying the materials and assembling them into a rod and they also say they are hand made.

Not much we can do about it :rolleyes:
 
I enjoy using premade blades every now and then. I wouldn't pass one off as a hand made knife, though.
I charge my cutomers an hourly rate, regardless of the work. There are some who couldn't (or wouldn't) pay the price for a hand ground blade. I refer them to the catalogs to pick out a blade.
 
You should've kicked the dude in the crotch and set him on fire! :D

Nothing wrong with assembling kits; just don't mislead folks into thinking you're selling true custom made knives.
 
Nothing wrong with it at all as long as soemone is honest about it...There was a guy here locally who did it and wasnt honest about it..Now he couldent sell a knife to someone tied up on the railroad tracks..
 
Not exactly a "kit knife," but here's a factory knife that I cut down to mini size for a California customer. I marked the rear of the tang.
Since it's my design-the Leverletto, I think it's OK to mark it.

IMG_3176.jpg


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It is a mater of being up front.

I use some pre-made blades to make kitchen cutlery for those who want a better grade knife with some whistles and bells in the handle work....at an affordable price. These will be hundreds less than my hand forged/ground kitchen blades.
I also purchase some folder kits and do a lot of embellishment. On some it is a little filework, mammoth scales, and other light embellishment. On others it can go as far as tossing out all but the liners and a few screws. A $40 DDR-BL3 kit can be converted into a $2000 custom damascus ( my blade and bolsters), fileworked and diamond set auto with MOP scales.
I put my name on these knives to identify the person who "made" the knife. I tell people that I purchase the blades in bulk from a cutlery supplier ( which I do), modify ( sometimes severely), and handle them with top grade materials. The pre-made Japanese kitchen blades I use come from the same source as the big name knife companies selling them in the retail stores.

There is a big disagreement on exactly what the word "custom" means in reference to a knife. Some say it is only "custom" if it is made to the customers specs. Others call all non-factory knives "custom". The same goes for the term "handmade". If it is made by hand...it is handmade to some, but if you didn't do everything short of smelting the steel, others don't think it is handmade. Most just use the term to divide things between factory made and handmade.

My take on modified kits is:
If the seller is says the knives are handmade from scratch, he is being dishonest.
If he says he builds, handles, and customizes the knives from blades he buys, he is telling the truth when he says they are handmade
If he just assembled kits with all the parts pre-made , I think the seller should say something like, "I assemble and hand finish these knives."

When asked why one of my knives is $750 and another similar knife is $250, I often say, " The $750 knife is a top quality knife. I took a bar of steel, forged it to shape, did the HT, and stoned it to super sharp knife with my own hands. The $250 knife is a high quality knife, made from a bar of steel that someone in Japan shaped and hardened....and I made it into a knife. They both are good knives, but I have much less time and materials invested in the $250 knife."
Chefs like the $750 hand made knives, home kitchen enthusiasts like the $250 knife.
 
.........if you don't make the blade, you're not a knife maker, you're a knife "builder" or "assembler". People can play semantics with words all day long. There was a person who thought they could slide by with using the words " I engineered", he was selling premade blades and didn't want people to know ( if he didn't then why the word game )
I feel if you have a table, or description of a knife on a website , and you're using bought blades it should be stated upfront so there's no assumption that you made the blade.
 
I bought a few folder kits from knife kits but only so I could learn how to make them, i would never sell them as mine or even pretend they were anything other than bought. I made a knife for a guy last year from Alabama Damascus and kept telling him that I didnt make the steel, I just cut the blade out of it. I think if you don't tell your customer the story of your work, you are doing yourself and them a disservice.
 
Selling a kit knife as a custom is simply fraud.

There's nothing wrong with making and selling a kit knife, provided you are honest with your customers.
 
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