just can't seem to create a sharp edge

[kevshin21]

hey guys I recently purchased an ontario rat-3 knife and a norton oil benchstone. It seems that the blade is not razer sharp so I decided to sharpen it (my first time). I have read around and the threads had told me to angle the knife until it "bites" the stone and sharpen it until it has a burr, is the burr the powdery gray stuff that comes out on the other side of the knife? or is that my stone? also it seems that after sharpening it, it still does not seem that sharp. What should I do? and the steel is 1095 not d2

 

[StretchNM]

What's your pressure like Kevshin? Don;t apply too much. Also, you can take a black magic marker or sharpie and "paint" the edge with it. Then hone a few light passes on each side, noting your angle. Where the marker is removed is the angle you're sharpening at.

My RAT3 was ground at well over 40 degrees. It was reasonably sharp out of the box, but it dulled quickly. I brought it down to 34 degrees with a Lansky. When I was satisfied, I used the Sharpmaker at 40 degrees to put a micro-bevel on it. It's razor sharp now and will cut paper almost as well as on the intro to the Sharpmaker video.

Light passes. Check the angle with a Sharpie.

 

[kevshin21]

I have been told not to put too much pressure onto and imagine if i was trying to slice the top of the stone off so i use very light pressure, am i doing it too light?

 

[StretchNM]

Maybe too light but I'm not a "stone" guy. Maybe some pros will chime in. There in here...they'll be along. Do the magic marker thing though while you're waiting.

I noticed in your other thread that someone said to "reprofile" (which is to rebevel the edge). I agree. I did it and it helped. The RAT-3 comes ground too shallow. If you rebevel though....have the right stones, the right frame of mind, sufficient patience, and ample time!!!!!!!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... is the burr the powdery gray stuff that comes out on the other side of the knife?

No, that is just debris. The burr is what forms on the edge itself, deformed steel, fractured steel, some abrasive etc. .

What should I do? and the steel is 1095 not d2

If it is a new knife, odd are that first you should set the angle to something sensible, say 15 degrees as a guideline, and then microbevel at a suitable angle.

-Cliff

 

[knarfeng]

kevshin21,
what grit norton stone did you get? You will probably need more than one grit. I freehand sharpen my knives. I start on a Norton fine india stone and finish on a hard white Arkansas natural stone. I don't take my blades to a push cut edge. But they're sharp enough for my cutting and slicing needs and they withstand my mild abuses.

Rather than starting out by changing the angle of the bevel, it might be best for you to start by keeping the original angle. Once you master sharpening at the existing angle you can decide if you want to change the angle of the bevel of each of your blades. (Changing the bevel angle usually takes a lot more work.) So, if you want to maintain the existing angle, this would bring you to StretchNM's marker suggestion in order to determine the existing bevel angle.

Mark the bevel with marker, then take a few swipes on the stone and examine the blackened edge.
If only the top part of the black is gone, raise the back of the blade higher on your next set of swipes.
If only the bottom of the black is gone, lower the back of the blade on your next set of swipes.

Once you hit an angle that removes all the black, That's the match. Note how you held the blade and start sharpening from there. It is important that you maintain the same angle all the way through the sharpening process. That's what the Lansky system (and others) do. They help you maintain the same angle. I don't strain when I sharpen, but I do bear down a bit on the blade.

Here is a page from the Norton website. It gives their instructions for using their sharpening stones.

http://www.nortonstones.com/Data/El..._line_edit.asp?ele_ch_id=L0000000000000005676

There are others here who can teach you lots more than I can. And you can decide where to go from here.
Happy sharpening.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

You can rebevel the edge quickly with a mill bastard file. Then use the stones.
Bill

 

[Alan Molstad]

hey guys I recently purchased an ontario rat-3 knife and a norton oil benchstone. It seems that the blade is not razer sharp so I decided to sharpen it (my first time). I have read around and the threads had told me to angle the knife until it "bites" the stone and sharpen it until it has a burr, is the burr the powdery gray stuff that comes out on the other side of the knife? or is that my stone? also it seems that after sharpening it, it still does not seem that sharp. What should I do? and the steel is 1095 not d2

I believe I use the same stone as you own.
I make knives so when I sharpen each knife that first time my knife will start out totally dull, not even a hint of sharp edge...

I hold the first side in position and only sharpen that one side.
Im not sure if I should or not, but I grind the stuffing out of that side, back and forth, never taking the blade off the stone.
I rub the edge into the stone back and forth, round and round...working the edge to grind off and nicks and junk that might be left over from when I was making the blade.

I just make sure that I keep the edge at the same angle...
Im looking for the wire to form on the top side edge.

The wire is just the steel of the very knife cutting edge that has got so thin from being sharpened that it flopped over onto the unsharpened side.
I have to keep rubbing the one side until I have a wire edge all the way along the full cutting edge.

If I dont get a wire edge Im not getting the knife sharp as it could be.

When I do, then I flip the knife blade over and do the same on this new side.
Once I have a new wire edge on the top side again, I know at that point that the knife is sharp and now I have to get rid of the wire.

This is the point where I do the more traditional sharpening where I drag the edge across the stone, flip the blade, and drag it back the other way, and flip again.. etc,etc.

I lightly feel for the wire edge with my fingers after a little while to make sure it has become rubbed off.
Then I use less force as I drag the knife across the stone...
The last few strokes are very light....

Most of the time at this point I have to get rid of the scratches from the stone so I go to the buffer....but thats only because the knife will be sold to someone else....

useing the buffer is tricky.
The buffer can really get a blade hair-popping sharp, but it can also make a blade very dull in seconds...

I had some co-workers come over to my house to learn how to sharpen and I got to see first hand the more common problems guys have with a stone.
#1, the first problem was not knowing what a wire was....They knew about the wire, but they didnt relly know what it was untill I showed them what it felt like.
#2, Another problem that had was not holding the blade at the same angle.

#3...I also noticed that they tended to stop too early,,,they didnt understand that you got to go stroking untill the wire tells you it's time to go to the next step,,,counting strokes is meaningless..

#4 in most of the books the writer tells us that to cut the wire free of the blade you raise the angle of the blade on the stone slightly.
My co-workers always would raise the blade up too high and would be just dulling the edge and needed to start all over again. That was my problem whenever I tried to use the "mouse pad" system too,

#5,,and lastly,,,the wire needs to be removed, but the trick is that if you dont actually get the wire cut free, it can fool you into thinking that the cutting edge is very sharp...only to have the wire edge fold over when you tried to use the blade

 

[kevshin21]

what is a wire?

 

[Alan Molstad]

It's just a term to call the result of sharpening one side of the blade at a time.
What happens is that you grind and grind away the steel on the one side and after a while the thin steel on the very sharp now cutting edge will get so thin that it bends up and over.

When you feel along the cutting edge of the other side of the knife you can feel this bent up, cutting edge steel.

It feels like someone has superglued a little thin wire all along the cutting edge.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Rather than starting out by changing the angle of the bevel, it might be best for you to start by keeping the original angle. Once you master sharpening at the existing angle you can decide if you want to change the angle of the bevel of each of your blades.

For someone who is new to sharpening, it is actually far easier to adopt some consistent angle like 15 degrees than try to match the different bevels on knives especially considering they are often uneven both along the knife and from side to side. Not to mention that no two knives are the same. Yes it takes a bit of work to set the bevels, but on most small knives it is only a few minutes work with the right stone.

-Cliff

 

[gud4u]

For someone who is new to sharpening, it is actually far easier to adopt some consistent angle like 15 degrees than try to match the different bevels on knives especially considering they are often uneven both along the knife and from side to side.

That is absolutely sound advice for anyone new to hand-honing. Learn what 15 degrees looks and feels like, concentrate on maintaining that angle and it will become second nature to you. Develop consistency.

 

[yuzuha]

This is a wire edge... you can see that the edge has curled over on this side of the blade:


Here is another shot of one that is starting to come off