Just Got My Katar

Joined
Oct 13, 1999
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Just got my HI Katar from the mailman. First impression: This thing is HUGE!!! The two side guards really add to the size of it. Uncle sent me a note with it saying to oil and polish the handle some to keep it from rusting. I'll do it tonight after my evening class.

The blade is well done and pretty sharp. Since I don't plan on using it any, I don't plan on doing any welding on it. The blade is riveted to the guard and it has a bit of play to it, so I'll see if I can tighten it up some.

All in all its an impressive work by Sanu.

Bob
 
Glad it made it Ok, Bob. A light polishing with some very fine steel wool and some oil will fix up the handle. And, I think the blade is bolted rather than riveted so you may be able to tighten the bolts some. But, as I mentioned if you are going to use it get it welded.
 
Hey! :)

I didn't know anyone else had ordered one! Welcome to the HI katar club!

In addition to getting mine welded, I also modified the frog, rigged up a wrist strap for it, and even got some liquid nitro to cryo treat it.

It has become the _The First Cryo'ed Katar In The History Of Man_...

Maybe I should finally break down and become a gold member so as to post some pix--you might get some mileage out of the wrist strap for your own katar as well, Bob.

I sure do hope you like it, especially as I was the guy who designed it. :o Seriously, please let me know if you have any questions/comments/criticisms about it; any shortcomings in design are entirely my fault. And let me know if you plan to make any modifications so you can avoid repeating the mistakes I made.

I've been trying to think up some improvements to the prototype since I got mine, with some decent ideas. Next I think I'm going to try to make a real steel katar and see how that works out.

Just have to teach myself how to forge weld...

-Dave
 
Thanks for posting, Bob and especially Dave.

At the first khukvention Dave gave me a hand hauling all the bent iron back to my truck. ( The 20" Sirupati is still mounted vertically just behind the driver's side of the seat just like it was when you saw it. I know this is going to sound like a broken record, but the folks who came were all really nice, and just like you'd think from their posts. Old friends you just hadn't met yet, except for the ones who were brothers you'd never met yet.

The khukventions really are family gatherings even if they do let some members of the family that we try to keep locked up in the attic slip out.
 
Originally posted by Dave K

In addition to getting mine welded, I also modified the frog, rigged up a wrist strap for it, and even got some liquid nitro to cryo treat it.

Eh... cryo-treated? How's that work? What's the process, and how does it change the structure of the steel?
 
Dave:

The katar has crossed my mind since I saw your post. However, IIRC, you said that the point on yours was soft. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

S.
 
Spence-

Yeah, the point on Bura's version was at _least_ as thin as it was on the model, and absolutely dead soft. It had some penetration success against live trees, but it bent when smashed into old firewood. (I wonder if Sanu's version is different. I hope he made the handles match on his.)

In any case, the point was just way too thin, especially in the distal taper, so I ground the needle-like first 1/4" off and reshaped from there. The tip is now a lot stronger, and fine against firewood, but the crazy thing was that after I knocked off the initial fragile tip, the steel beneath seemed much harder.

This is something that I've never run into with a khukuri before. My experience with khukuris has always been that if the tip is real soft, you can hammer it and grind it but the newly exposed steel will be just as soft. That does not seem to have been the case with this katar blade. I have a couple of possible ideas as to how this might have happened but the only way to know for sure would be to watch how the kamis hardened these things in the first place.

So, after having good success regrinding the tip, the whole thing was welded, and straightened :rolleyes: , and more or less cryoed.

Rust asked about cryoing-

I went to the Phoenix public library and checked out "Cryogenics" by William E. Bryson. The book claims that many materials, and especially ferrous materials like blade steels and tool steels, can benefit greatly from exposure to extremely cold temperatures. The theory is that after forging, quenching, and tempering, the molecules in, say, a knife blade are still somewhat jumbled up and some internal stresses remain regardless of how well the heat treating process was done. As the steel is cooled down through exposure to dry ice or liquid nitrogen, the molecules slow down and eventually realign themselves more evenly than would be possible through conventional heat treating alone. As a result, internal stresses (say, from welding or heat treating) are reduced, and wear resistance (useful in everything from khukuris to drill bits) is greatly increased through transforming more of the retained austenite, or something like that. That's the hope, anyway.

What I did was unfortunately far from perfect. No one in Phoenix seems to offer cryo treating anymore, so I went to a welding supply house and had them fill up a couple little 5 litre dewars that I rented from them. I then took them back to the shop where I had stood up a rubbermaid bread loaf holder inside of a large styrofoam cooler lid. (The dewars weren't big enough and the rubbermaid bread box was the longest container I could find that was still broad enough to put the katar in, while the styrofoam lid was for safety in case the liquid nitrogen shattered the rubbermaid thing.) I started pouring the liquid nitro into the rubbermaid container and while there was plenty of hissing and boiling, there were no leaks and nothing shattered. I filled it most of the way up and then went to the freezer to fish out my pre-chilled katar. Into the liquid nitro it went and I was in business.

The rest of the afternoon was spent occassionally topping off the container as the liquid nitro boiled off, and then eventually wandering off to do something else when I ran out of more to pour in. Total time in cryo at the tip may have been up to four hours, which has to be better than just putting it in the freezer but certainly isn't as good as a professional facility could do.

After the blade warmed up to room temperature, I put it back in the oven for one last tempering cycle to relieve any stress caused by the liquid nitro.

Unfortunately, I wasn't yet nearly done with the damn thing but I think I'm tired of telling stories for the time being.

I'm getting pretty sick of working on the damn thing, but I still need to test it out against some sort of serious opposition like a car door or something like that.

Hopefully this weekend I will be able to get to my grinding wheel to begin work on a new and improved 15" version of this katar with a forge-welded frame.

Anyone who wants to order one of these things from Uncle Bill might want to see what Big Bob has to say about his. These first two may be more like initial prototypes--as yet there remains much room for improvement in my design.

-Dave
 
Originally posted by Dave K

Rust asked about cryoing-

Weird stuff. I sure as hell won't try and refute it, but I have to admit that I find the theory surprising. It's just possible that it works somewhat like bead blasting, but at an internal and crystaline level? I wonder...

I may try it some day, when I create a knife that's worth the expenditure of money and effort.
 
Thanks for good help, Dave. That point was thin and sharp and may have got overheated by an apprentice when polishing. That would tend to explain why the tip itself was soft but the steel was hard farther back.
 
Bill Martino wrote -

"That point was thin and sharp and may have got overheated by an apprentice when polishing. That would tend to explain why the tip itself was soft but the steel was hard farther back."


That seems the likeliest explanation. It's fatally easy to do; and you know as soon as you've done it, 'cos the knifepoint turns blue as it overheats.

The damage *can* be rectified, tho' it's a risky business. Basically, you swaddle the rest of the blade in lots of damp cloth, to keep heat out of it, then warm up the tip in a needle-thin oxy flame until it glows orange; then quench immediately; scrub off the discoloration with emery until you're back to bright metal; apply more damp cloths; reheat the tip till it changes color to light brown or purple, according to choice; then quench *immediately*.

This method is used by top-level swordsmiths in the US to rectify small localised warping in sword-blades - spot-heat, quickly tap out the distortion, reheat, quench and temper.

The danger, of course, is that heat will migrate into the rest of the blade and draw the temper, rendering it soft. It also sets up uneven stresses in the steel, which can cause a weak spot.

The only other way is to strip off the furniture (handle &c), and do the heat treatment stage on the whole blade all over again.

The cryo stuff is often discussed over on the Bladesmiths Cafe site on SwordForums. The arguments there are way too high-tech for me to understand. The concensus of opinion among the guys there (who sound like they know what they're talking about) is that the cryo stuff's necessary to get a decent heat treat on some of the stainless alloys used by the custom knifemaker crowd - ISTR it's used for 440-C, the 'default stainless' for short knives - but opinion's divided on whether it's worth the hassle for regular cooking-grade carbon steel like 5160 or 1075
 
The only thing that can really needs to be changed about the katars is going from bolting to welding in the first place. Dave, did you say that you were going to do a 15" katar model. If so, that may be the only way to get the kamis to weld their katars.

Bob
 
There are so many unique and incredible things coming out of BG that I doubt I'll ever be free of HIKV.
 
Yeah, I'm going to try to make a 15" OAL katar, a bit smaller than the monsters we have...:)

I have seen drawings of historical katars that appear to have blades up to three or four feet long!:eek:

Hopefully I'll be able to get started on the 15"er this weekend.

-Dave
 
Originally posted by Dave K
Yeah, I'm going to try to make a 15" OAL katar, a bit smaller than the monsters we have...:)

I have seen drawings of historical katars that appear to have blades up to three or four feet long!:eek:

Hopefully I'll be able to get started on the 15"er this weekend.

-Dave

A suggestion Nephew Dawi. If you bolt this one together then get some J.B.Weld and epoxy over the screws as well. Then paint it because the paint covers up all the joints giving the kamis a better idea of what you want.
Be sure and paint all the steel a silver or aluminium color or you're liable to get a wooden katar sent right back to you.;)

Just tzn about the last part, but only a little.:)
 
The NDN is back to tzn again? Good news - kinda.

Just be very very careful...
 
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