KaBar Next Generation. Steel question.

[nozh2002]

I have KaBar 1221 - which is my favorite big knife (from what I own). At some point as I understand KaBar makes them fron Sandvic 12C27. Now it is from 440A. I bought it a bit more then year ago and it has bead-blast finish. Also it has 1221 on ricasso. Does it mean that I have Sandvic one?
What I see on A.G.Russel website (he has best photoes in Internet) is that new Next Generation knives have epoxy finish, instead of bead-blasting.
Why KaBar stop using Sandvic on 1221? It still uses it on Fighter from same line. As I understand Sandvic outperforms 1095 so probably better then 440A.
Thanks, Vassili.

 

[t1mpani]

I think the switch was made entirely for cost purposes. From what I understand, 12C27 is just a very pure (less sulphur) version of 440A. I don't think there's going to be any real difference between them performance wise. Also, I don't see that it really outperformed the 1095 in anything except corrosion resistance (which is not unimportant). My 12C27 Kabar was a better out of the box cutter than the standard 1095 one, but this I'm sure was do to the fact that the edge grind on the next generations is (at least was) higher and thinner than on the standard series.
I don't know for sure how to tell which you have, but the 12C27 ones had a light grey, frosty finish, where the new Next Gens I've seen are a much darker, gun-metal grey.
I know you'll continue to be happy with it, no matter which you have.

 

[nozh2002]

So I probably have Sandvic then.
My impression on steel performance is based on little chart provided by KaBar - it shows 1095, 12C27 and D2. It claerly shows that at the begining of the test 12C27 was close to D2 but then degradated to almost 1095 level. Kind of between D2 and 1095.
Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Greg Walker]

As the consultant for the Next Generation I'd offer the following -

When the original design team left KA-BAR they found themselves able to change to the less expensive steel (440A).

The original N-GENs were the way the knife was designed to perform.

You change the steel, you change the performance, period.

"It's still the same...maybe even BETTER!" is HS.

Unfortunate but the bean counters have done it again.

GW

 

[t1mpani]

Thanks for posting, Greg!

Well, cost was my guess. A shame, really--if there is a performance difference I'd have liked to have got a plain-edge version in the Sandvic stuff.

 

[Greg Walker]

D2 Extreme is good. Much better than 440 LOSER steel.

Can't believe it.

How to screw up a good bit of work.

Ya gotta love it.

GW

 

[W.T. Beck]

I have read some comments suggesting that the Sandvic 12C27 is a much better steel than the others in the 440A, AUS6, 420HC, i.e., low end stainless, range. Yet I have not seen strong confirmation of this. Many Scandinavian knives are made from it, and I have read some reports by owners saying that these are pretty mediocre in edge-holding.

I did read a post by the owner of the Bark River knife company stating that he planned to make some good knives from 12C27. However he also stated that it was necessary to use a very complex heat treatment to get superior performance from that steel.

I guess if Cliff Stamp tests a 12C27 knife and shows that it holds an edge as well as higher end stainless steels, then I will believe the rumors about 12C27. Until that happens I will remain very doubtful that 12C27 is anything special.

 

[nozh2002]

Thank you Greg.
Can you tell me - is my knife from Sandvic or from 440C. The number on ricasso 1221 and it is beadblasted.
When KaBar decided to improve cost did they chnge steel and coating simultaniously?
2 W.T. Beck
I'll try to find paper which I got with KaBar 1217, where I saw this chart. I hope it is still somewhere.
From other hand why they decide to use Sandvic from Norvegia if it is same as 440A?
Thanks, Vassili.

 

[t1mpani]

Nozh2002,
If your Ka-Bar is 440C, I want to know where you got it and if they accept checks.

 

[nozh2002]

Sorry it was typo, I meant 440A. But you may spend you money on D2 KaBar even better. I hope they'll make Suoper Extrime Next Generation from CPM S30V. It will be even better then Green Beret from CR.
I belive I bought it from www.bestknives.com. I think it is Sandvic - it has light grey beadblasted blade.
Oh! I actually have the picture!

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[W.T. Beck]

I did more reading about 12C27. I found a post by Darryl Ralph, and he stated that, if properly heat treated, 12C27 performed in between 440A and the high end stainless steels from 440C and up. Other posts said essentially the same - that 12C27 performed better than 440A and similar provided the heat treatment is optimal.

This would explain the many posts claiming 12C27 is no better than 440A. If the heat treatment is not just right it will not be better, and one would not expect a custom quality heat treatment from the average production company.

This then brings up the question of whether or not Kabar heat treated the 12C27 knives to bring out their full potential. You would have to know the answer to that to know if your 12C27 Kabar is better than the current 440A model.

 

[cbach8tw]

Thanks for the info about the steel, I too was wondering about 440A or Sandvik.

 

[EDCeeker]

That's a nearly 3-year-old thread you resurrected, cbach8tw.

 

[cbach8tw]

Thanks for noticing I did resurrect an old thread. I am new to the forums and I am having a hard time trying to locate things such as responses to my posts. Any advice or helpful hints how to use this site would be appreciated. I went to the help site, or FAQ, but I still have difficulty finding the responses or look for topics using the advanced searches. I did finally figure out how to look for my posts, then look at who replied to them.

Thanks and I hope to become a frequent flyer to this site, one knife guy to the others.:thumbup:

 

[Cliff Stamp]

From what I understand, 12C27 is just a very pure (less sulphur) version of 440A.

It is a pretty different steel, I have gathered some information on it here :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/blade_materials.html#S_12C27mod

Also, I don't see that it really outperformed the 1095 in anything except corrosion resistance (which is not unimportant).

It has the ability to achieve basically full martensite hardness and will have a very fine grain and distribution of fine K2 chromium carbides. It does not have a high wear resistance compared to the high carbon stainless cutlery steels and thus won't do well slicing carboard or similar. I have run a few comparisons, it isn't impressive in that regard. It is however supposed to do very well push cutting against the same alloys especially at low angles.

Unfortunately the ones I have in 12C27mod are softer than optimal and thus the edge will roll sooner than the higher alloy blades I have which are all extremely hard thus I end up comparing 58 vs 66 HRC and the work is lopsided. Phil Wilson has became interested in it and hopefully he will have some results shortly and he will have no problems in getting it very hard so comparisons could be more even. AEB-L is a similar steel.

-Cliff