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Kali and boxing...
- Thread starter starlight
- Start date
Boxing can be traced all the back to the ancient Greeks,when it was included in the Olympics. Egyptians and Romans boxed, and boxing is even referred to in the Bible. According to martial arts historian Terry Brown, the Celts were decorating their pottery with boxing scenes 1200 years before the famous Shao-lin temple was founded. Modern boxing is generally traced back to the barefisted boxing in England in the 1700s. FMA owes much of its methodology to the Spanish school of swordfighting.
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Chicago said:
The FMA owes much to Hindu, Chinese, Indo- Malay and Arab methods as well. The Spanish owe a lot to Moorish methods of edged weaponry because they were conquered by the Moors for seven hundred plus years. TWICE the length of time of Spanish presence in the Philippines... BEFORE the Spanish even arrived on the islands.
What is often confused is that because Spanish terminology was used for the Tagalog or Spanish provinces in the Philippines, it is taken as if those methods never existed prior to that. That's a linguistic confusion because terms were used for those self same weapons prior to Spanish arrival that were Sanskrit or Malay based.
Filipinos merely altered the way they called some things into Spanish, the same way Filipinos alter the way they describe some things into English today.
Not that no Spanish influence was involved, but to say the majority of FMA is Spanish is incorrect. If that were true, you can find Spaniards who never studied FMA move just like FMAs .
----
Back to topic, it is very suspect that boxing originated in the Philippines, but Filipinos definately influenced the sport of boxing.
--Rafael--
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I found these articles very informative.
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_0701.htm
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/articles/fmabox.html
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_0701.htm
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/articles/fmabox.html
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Viewing some old films of Pinoy Boxers you can see the distinct stylistic contrast from their Western oponents. As much as books and articles describe the action, the footage speak for themselves.
Now this is not to say other fighters moved this way based on their country of origin, but suffice to say the footage does SHOW an English/Western fighter versus a Filipino in the early era of Boxing as the sport we know today. I haven't seen footage of Filipino fighters of that era moving like their English/Western opponents, nor English/Western boxers moving like the Filipinos.
1923 World Flyweight Championship
Pancho Villa - Filipino versus Jimmy Wilde (World Champ)
In the past there were comments of the lack of blocking evident in European fighters. What I saw here is that Wilde would use his hands to try and deflect blows, like a fencer parrying attacks, but Wilde was rather unsuccessful due to Villa's agility and the way Villa over powered Wilde's stance, a probing left hand lead guard that extended out from Wilde's hip. Wilde's stance reminds me of some sabre fencer's low guard. The Filipino Villa would launch himself with power shots that went right through some of Wilde's defenses. It indicates to me that Wilde's guard was perfect for fighting someone who had a similar posture but not too effective against the Filipino's crouching style.
In turn the Pinoy, Villa would 'absorb' Wilde's punches in a semi crouch turtle guard that looked like Ken Norton's peek a boo style decades later. This nullified a lot of Wilde's punches and Wilde kept delivering them at the same spots as if he could not adjust from his training's installed muscle memory.
Villa's guard is different from Wilde's which was the lower lead left, a bit out from the hips variety that another English fighter uses in the next fight I saw filmed a decade later. This open low hanging guard indicates that it was a very popular European boxing stance.
So Villa's arms were tucked close together and Wilde's were held out. FMA teaches to keep the arms close to the body to keep them from getting sliced up. European fencing teaches to keep a tip held out, which works great if one has a long sword or edged weapon with a point.
Now, I don't know if it is Villa's Filipino empty hand experience coming into play, but he does deliver 'illegal' type blows in this match which are backhands flowing after his right hook. It just flows right back after his hook and thumps Wilde a few times. So it's a half beat shot. Wilde even complains to the ref and shows him what Villa is doing. Villa does it pretty fast and tight on few occasions. Those who train in FMA use this flow in weapons and empty hand work.
Villa won the fight.
-----
World Flyweight Championship 1937
Small Montana (aka Benjamin Gan, he's the Pinoy) versus Benny Lynch
If ever Filipino 'footwork' may have influenced Ali this is a good evidence of it.
Gan has a smooth subtle rhythmic bounce to his timing which is very reminiscent of Ali. His jab, especially as he slides away looks much like Ali's. Jab and move.
Guards:
The Englishman ? Lynch would hold his lead left straighter, extended farther from his hips similar to Wilde's above.
The Filipino Gan's left lead is tucked ala Ali's along his side.
Surprisingly, Gan even does a slight 'ali' shuffle as he zones out of the punches.
Decades prior to Ali popularizing the move.
Lynch would come in with a nice lunging left then pop back on his feet. His bounce was after the fact...very different- like a fencer getting out of the way after a lunge and recovering from the movement. He establishes this more as the fight wore on. Otherwise Lynch was flatter of foot.
Gan would be bouncing prior to striking ala Ali. Then slide back and bounce away. The bounce was more a timing gauge as it set up his shots rather than recover.
Decision goes to Lynch. Gan looks like he abandoned his earlier smooth style and stood flatter- perhaps fatigue set in. No one looked badly hurt in the fight.
--------
One detail really stood out- the way the boxers acted on the ring. They would shake hands prior to the bout as they entered the ring as if to meet for tea or something.
------
The BOLO Punch, just by the name you can see the Filipino influence. There's footage of 'bolo' punch populator Garcia who Ali referenced when he was doing promos for the the Thrilla in Manila. Ali said he would use the bolo punch in the fight but don't recall if he ever did.
-----
Gabriel Flash Elorde named by RING magazine as one of the best fighters of his era was another Filipino fighter who Ali admired. I met Mr. Elorde as a kid since my uncle reffed and judged many fights in the Philippines and was an old friend of Elorde's.
Decades later, after having trained in the FMA, my uncle saw me working out in the backyard with blade and sticks. He said matter of factly that it reminded him of Elorde's father. This took me by surprise since I didn't know the linkage between Elorde and FMA. He said Elorde's father was a known eskrimador and that the boxers would always ask him to show off his skills. His FMA footwork influenced his son's who became known for his 'flashy' footwork and combinations.
--Rafael--
Now this is not to say other fighters moved this way based on their country of origin, but suffice to say the footage does SHOW an English/Western fighter versus a Filipino in the early era of Boxing as the sport we know today. I haven't seen footage of Filipino fighters of that era moving like their English/Western opponents, nor English/Western boxers moving like the Filipinos.
1923 World Flyweight Championship
Pancho Villa - Filipino versus Jimmy Wilde (World Champ)
In the past there were comments of the lack of blocking evident in European fighters. What I saw here is that Wilde would use his hands to try and deflect blows, like a fencer parrying attacks, but Wilde was rather unsuccessful due to Villa's agility and the way Villa over powered Wilde's stance, a probing left hand lead guard that extended out from Wilde's hip. Wilde's stance reminds me of some sabre fencer's low guard. The Filipino Villa would launch himself with power shots that went right through some of Wilde's defenses. It indicates to me that Wilde's guard was perfect for fighting someone who had a similar posture but not too effective against the Filipino's crouching style.
In turn the Pinoy, Villa would 'absorb' Wilde's punches in a semi crouch turtle guard that looked like Ken Norton's peek a boo style decades later. This nullified a lot of Wilde's punches and Wilde kept delivering them at the same spots as if he could not adjust from his training's installed muscle memory.
Villa's guard is different from Wilde's which was the lower lead left, a bit out from the hips variety that another English fighter uses in the next fight I saw filmed a decade later. This open low hanging guard indicates that it was a very popular European boxing stance.
So Villa's arms were tucked close together and Wilde's were held out. FMA teaches to keep the arms close to the body to keep them from getting sliced up. European fencing teaches to keep a tip held out, which works great if one has a long sword or edged weapon with a point.
Now, I don't know if it is Villa's Filipino empty hand experience coming into play, but he does deliver 'illegal' type blows in this match which are backhands flowing after his right hook. It just flows right back after his hook and thumps Wilde a few times. So it's a half beat shot. Wilde even complains to the ref and shows him what Villa is doing. Villa does it pretty fast and tight on few occasions. Those who train in FMA use this flow in weapons and empty hand work.
Villa won the fight.
-----
World Flyweight Championship 1937
Small Montana (aka Benjamin Gan, he's the Pinoy) versus Benny Lynch
If ever Filipino 'footwork' may have influenced Ali this is a good evidence of it.
Gan has a smooth subtle rhythmic bounce to his timing which is very reminiscent of Ali. His jab, especially as he slides away looks much like Ali's. Jab and move.
Guards:
The Englishman ? Lynch would hold his lead left straighter, extended farther from his hips similar to Wilde's above.
The Filipino Gan's left lead is tucked ala Ali's along his side.
Surprisingly, Gan even does a slight 'ali' shuffle as he zones out of the punches.
Decades prior to Ali popularizing the move.
Lynch would come in with a nice lunging left then pop back on his feet. His bounce was after the fact...very different- like a fencer getting out of the way after a lunge and recovering from the movement. He establishes this more as the fight wore on. Otherwise Lynch was flatter of foot.
Gan would be bouncing prior to striking ala Ali. Then slide back and bounce away. The bounce was more a timing gauge as it set up his shots rather than recover.
Decision goes to Lynch. Gan looks like he abandoned his earlier smooth style and stood flatter- perhaps fatigue set in. No one looked badly hurt in the fight.
--------
One detail really stood out- the way the boxers acted on the ring. They would shake hands prior to the bout as they entered the ring as if to meet for tea or something.
------
The BOLO Punch, just by the name you can see the Filipino influence. There's footage of 'bolo' punch populator Garcia who Ali referenced when he was doing promos for the the Thrilla in Manila. Ali said he would use the bolo punch in the fight but don't recall if he ever did.
-----
Gabriel Flash Elorde named by RING magazine as one of the best fighters of his era was another Filipino fighter who Ali admired. I met Mr. Elorde as a kid since my uncle reffed and judged many fights in the Philippines and was an old friend of Elorde's.
Decades later, after having trained in the FMA, my uncle saw me working out in the backyard with blade and sticks. He said matter of factly that it reminded him of Elorde's father. This took me by surprise since I didn't know the linkage between Elorde and FMA. He said Elorde's father was a known eskrimador and that the boxers would always ask him to show off his skills. His FMA footwork influenced his son's who became known for his 'flashy' footwork and combinations.
--Rafael--
For the record, Starlight had asked whether boxing originated from FMA. It did not-it goes back to the Egyptians and Greeks. While there have been some great Filipino boxers who have contributed to the art, no historian believes that boxing, especially modern boxing, originated from FMA. I also added that much of the methodology of FMA derives from the Spanish school of swordfighting-not all. No one really knows for sure because of all the cross-cultural influences in the Philippines and Europe itself.
starlight said:
Some years back I was studying jeet kune do from my teacher, who in turn, had studied under many of Bruce Lee's original students, including Dan Inosanto and
more recently, Ted Wong who continues to teach JKD the way he was shown by Bruce Lee.
The jeet kune do stance outline by Lee himself has the right-handed person standing in the unorthodox, or "southpaw" stance. It's essentially the Western boxing stance, but if you're right handed, you're leading with your right hand. This in turn allows you to throw a more powerful jab, than one normally can throw with the left. Those who doubt the power that can be generated from this stance only need to see footage of Bruce Lee demonstrating his "one inch punch" at the karate tournament in Long Beach, CA.
The weaker left hand then benefits from the greater mechanical motion when thrown from the position normally occupied by the right.
Once you've trained to lead with your right hand in boxing, the transition to single-stick kali becomes seamless, as you are always leading with your right.
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Chicago said:
I would say that the methodology in MUCH of the FMA methodology is Moor/Arabic than Spanish if we are going by cross cultural influences and TRUE origin.
1. Spain itself derived 700 plus years of Moor swordsmanship into it's culture, prior to arriving in the Philippines.
2. Philippines and other islands already had Moor influence prior to Spanish arrival.
If one can go by the logic that 300 hundred plus years of Spanish occupation in some areas of the Philippine islands influenced the FMA, then 700 plus years of swordsmanship under Moorish rule when swords were VERY relevant in battles definitely evolved and influenced Spanish sword methodology. Spain was already drifting away from their sword arts and into the use of firearms in the latter two hundred years of occupation on the Philippine islands..
Spain's reaction from being under Moorish rule for such a long period of time was the Conquesta. Therefore, Spain made it a point to make sure that Moor influence was neglible when it came to introducing the Spanish version of history amongst native cultures during their Conquesta.
Confusion is further added because Spain's MAIN influence on non Sourthern Filipinos was the introduction of their Spanish language. When the new Spanish language altered the Filipino terms to describe things they already knew, it became a way to erase and discredit the history of the Filipino culture. This was one of the primary goals of the Conquesta.
Spain can take credit for adding Spanish terminology to FMA, but to state that MUCH of FMA fighting methods is mostly derived from Spanish swordsmanship is false. Spain had SOME influence on the FMA, but it's the residual effect of the Conquesta mindset to state that Spain was more than that, especially when one does not read much about Spain admitting the influence of the Moors on their own sword methods.
--Rafael--
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starlight said:
Search for 'Filipino boxers videotape' and you'll probably come up with a few sites that offer these videos.
I believe filipinoboxers.com was a site where they were available.
--Rafael--
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- 167
Here's a thread with some alternative points of view, regarding FMA's supposed influence on Western boxing:
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=326281&FID=43&pc=58
I also question the assumed Moorish influence on Spanish swordsmanship. The Spanish certainly adopted specific aspects of Moorish martial culture wholesale (the use of jinete light cavalry, for example), but Spanish swordsmen (rodeleros; espadachins) appear to have fought in much the same manner as swordsmen all over Western Europe.
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=326281&FID=43&pc=58
I also question the assumed Moorish influence on Spanish swordsmanship. The Spanish certainly adopted specific aspects of Moorish martial culture wholesale (the use of jinete light cavalry, for example), but Spanish swordsmen (rodeleros; espadachins) appear to have fought in much the same manner as swordsmen all over Western Europe.
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David,
How did the Europeans use swords prior to the Moors? Perhaps by this time, so much cross influence between Greeks, Roman, Moor have occured that it becomes grey in some areas. The problem is that warfare and the use of the horse /formation and other weapons begin to dictate the way war is fought. Dueling becomes a separate study for the Europeans at a later time.
It would seem that if a theory of a LARGE Spanish methodological influence on FMA is to be seriously considered, based on the qualifier of Spanish occupation, then it must also be determined that Moors influenced Spain based on the their time of occupation in Spain. It is such a large contrast in time from when the Moors conquered Spain, especially during a time period when swordmanship was actually in predominant usage, compared to when the Spanish occupied the Philippines.
We're comparing a hundred years (because by the 1700s - guns were the norm) of Spain in the Philippine islands using swords to 700 plus years of Moors using swords in Spain.
Yet there's no influence, or maybe no admittance from the Spanish?
What it sounds like is that one side wants to have its cake and eat it too:
1. Spain influenced the FMA
2. Moors did not influence Spain
Yet using identical qualifiers (time of cultural occupation, actual systemology, etc.) to support these two claims eventually contradicts them.
If we are to entertain the theory that Spain was not influenced by the Moors, then it would seem completely strange to have discussions about Spanish influence on Filipino swordsmanship.
One just has to look at the design of Filipino weaponry, a marked difference from Spanish cut and thrust swords. A kampilan, kris, barung, talibong, panabas, headaxe look nothing like Spanish weaponry. That's not even including the Filipino tribal societies with almost no Spanish influence like the Bontocs/Igorotes/Aetas/Negritos. Any weapon maker worth their salt knows the design of the weapon dictates the actual usage and methods of the wielder.
So we have to contend that Moorish influence in the FMA (where these weapons actually have resemblances) is MUCH larger than Spanish, BUT Spanish LANGUAGE, especially in the Christianized regions seem to have had an influence.
This all depends on whether or not one believes FMA is actually the war art in 'martial', not the belt /dojo system of Filipino 'martial' arts. Because then we would have to say that the Spanish would have to take a backseat to the Japanese and Indonesians, becuase many FMAs have appropriated those systems... we hear the word 'Master' not 'Maestro'... Guro/Tuhon/Datu/Sultan more often, we see rankings, forms/sayaw, etc.
--Rafael--
How did the Europeans use swords prior to the Moors? Perhaps by this time, so much cross influence between Greeks, Roman, Moor have occured that it becomes grey in some areas. The problem is that warfare and the use of the horse /formation and other weapons begin to dictate the way war is fought. Dueling becomes a separate study for the Europeans at a later time.
It would seem that if a theory of a LARGE Spanish methodological influence on FMA is to be seriously considered, based on the qualifier of Spanish occupation, then it must also be determined that Moors influenced Spain based on the their time of occupation in Spain. It is such a large contrast in time from when the Moors conquered Spain, especially during a time period when swordmanship was actually in predominant usage, compared to when the Spanish occupied the Philippines.
We're comparing a hundred years (because by the 1700s - guns were the norm) of Spain in the Philippine islands using swords to 700 plus years of Moors using swords in Spain.
Yet there's no influence, or maybe no admittance from the Spanish?
What it sounds like is that one side wants to have its cake and eat it too:
1. Spain influenced the FMA
2. Moors did not influence Spain
Yet using identical qualifiers (time of cultural occupation, actual systemology, etc.) to support these two claims eventually contradicts them.
If we are to entertain the theory that Spain was not influenced by the Moors, then it would seem completely strange to have discussions about Spanish influence on Filipino swordsmanship.
One just has to look at the design of Filipino weaponry, a marked difference from Spanish cut and thrust swords. A kampilan, kris, barung, talibong, panabas, headaxe look nothing like Spanish weaponry. That's not even including the Filipino tribal societies with almost no Spanish influence like the Bontocs/Igorotes/Aetas/Negritos. Any weapon maker worth their salt knows the design of the weapon dictates the actual usage and methods of the wielder.
So we have to contend that Moorish influence in the FMA (where these weapons actually have resemblances) is MUCH larger than Spanish, BUT Spanish LANGUAGE, especially in the Christianized regions seem to have had an influence.
This all depends on whether or not one believes FMA is actually the war art in 'martial', not the belt /dojo system of Filipino 'martial' arts. Because then we would have to say that the Spanish would have to take a backseat to the Japanese and Indonesians, becuase many FMAs have appropriated those systems... we hear the word 'Master' not 'Maestro'... Guro/Tuhon/Datu/Sultan more often, we see rankings, forms/sayaw, etc.
--Rafael--
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Spada e Pugnale said:
hmm,, interesting. Some of the posters match my description of the low lead and actual use of parrying by the European fighters that the posters seemed to feel was slighted by the Howe article.
I remember that Dog Brother's discussion.. a good one. I'm glad Guro Krishna got involved. He's an excellent representive of English MA practitioners studying FMA... just saw him last month.
--Rafael--
"It is such a large contrast in time from when the Moors conquered Spain, especially during a time period when swordmanship was actually in predominant usage, compared to when the Spanish occupied the Philippines.
We're comparing a hundred years (because by the 1700s - guns were the norm) of Spain in the Philippine islands using swords to 700 plus years of Moors using swords in Spain."
That is an excellent point, Sun Helmet.
I happen to think that there is Spanish influence in the FMAs, one reason being the Spaniards long military presence in the region. But it would be interesting to research, by the same token, just how much impact the 700+ years of Moorish occupation had on Spain's martial culture.
Especially since, as you mention, the occupation took place during a time when swordsmanship was of extreme importance in warfare.
We're comparing a hundred years (because by the 1700s - guns were the norm) of Spain in the Philippine islands using swords to 700 plus years of Moors using swords in Spain."
That is an excellent point, Sun Helmet.
I happen to think that there is Spanish influence in the FMAs, one reason being the Spaniards long military presence in the region. But it would be interesting to research, by the same token, just how much impact the 700+ years of Moorish occupation had on Spain's martial culture.
Especially since, as you mention, the occupation took place during a time when swordsmanship was of extreme importance in warfare.