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KALI AROBICS for Women at my local YMCA
- Thread starter Donna Barnas
- Start date
How about "Sticks and Kicks" or better yet, "Stick and Kicks for Chicks"...and a coupla guys. i would love to see something serious like that at our Y; we have Shotokan karate for kids. the local training places are mostly hybrid TKD. some small KungFu- Cynthia Rothrock style. there are occasionally "defense" classes in street clothes, these are only offered to women. don't think we could get away with a class offered only to men, that would of course be discrimination. and it seems that the instructors of most of these local classes with women only aren't doing much of a favor for their students. one "Master" was shocked when i pointed out to him during a chat how they've shown that a large percentage of attacks on women happen AFTER they've been thrown, and thrown hard, on the ground. 99% of his lessons were responses to after you're grabbed; after hands are around your neck, etc. like the gorilla is gonna stand there and just hold onto your shoulder loosely! his piss-off meter finally went off when i asked him what happened when a strong man squeezed around a neck, how can you get out of that? his responses didn't convince me so i told him how once those cricoid and thyroid cartilages are broken, once your neck is crushed you're most likely gonna suffocate anyway- the badguy doesn't have to hold onto you forever. kinda like the streetboxer who targets his punches for your neck rather than head. can be deadly. Snick, you can take it from here. anyway, glad to see you pushing something serious and real; also glad to see that you don't mind men or women trying to further themselves. I respect that immensely. forgive the rambling......
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C.R.O.C.H.E.T.
(Combat Rescue Ops Clandestine Hardknocks Effective Thug-Thomping)
Come on people this is DONNA, doesn't matter what she calls it, it'll still be martial. Just hope the aerobic-bunny crowd doesn't freak.
On the topic of womens' self-defense, Donna posted in the "Dumbest Self defense moves you've seen taught" over in Bram's "Common Sense Forum" that she's seen too many to list them all. NO Tae Boo-boo from Donna.
I share KELT34 feelings about grapling attacks; it's silly to assume the attacker will always--or even in most situations--get you into a hold and not try to unbalance you.
If you're not training for a slam from the rear while the BG goes into his bear hug or whatever there's lack of realism ,. Yes,yes, exceptions noted ,one BG holding while the other punches, your spouse grabbing and pleading "don't leave me!, etc.--In fact I'm sure someone somewhere has even broken out of a Full Nelson applied by a wrestler by stomping the foot; I've just never met him.
DONNA: Are you going to teach them "mindset" from the start?
It seems to me that this is even more essential for the aerobic/kickboking (Great! next time a rapist or mugger attacks the ladies will be able to out-jab him.)set. I've seen instructors teach CHILDREN techniques I couldn't pull off successfully against someone half my size, let alone twice; OK, I'm ranting.
Donna: In all seriousness what do you consider the essentials for "mindset" for women. From the ladies I've known that have been attacked I've noticed 2 main errors;
#1 Reverse "machismo". Or mother was a paranoid fuddy--duddy so it won't happen to me. I don't know of too many men who open the door without checking who it is or who take a stroll through Central Park at night but I have known of women who have done both with unpleasant consequences.
#2 Lack of commitment in a fight or the old "I must be nice at all costs or THEY won't like me" Insane,but not a laughing matter.
--Actually, as a man I've been able to use that to advantage when some drunken punk "invited"
me to a barroom brawl. As I walked away and heard loud accusations of my being a coward
(gasp! Coward! the ultimate male shame/manipulation hot button)
I've replied with "Aw, shucks , and I thought I was just a bad mother and a messy
housekeeper".--
Donna, as a woman and an acomplished martial artist, what is your advice to the ladies?
(Combat Rescue Ops Clandestine Hardknocks Effective Thug-Thomping)
Come on people this is DONNA, doesn't matter what she calls it, it'll still be martial. Just hope the aerobic-bunny crowd doesn't freak.
On the topic of womens' self-defense, Donna posted in the "Dumbest Self defense moves you've seen taught" over in Bram's "Common Sense Forum" that she's seen too many to list them all. NO Tae Boo-boo from Donna.
I share KELT34 feelings about grapling attacks; it's silly to assume the attacker will always--or even in most situations--get you into a hold and not try to unbalance you.
If you're not training for a slam from the rear while the BG goes into his bear hug or whatever there's lack of realism ,. Yes,yes, exceptions noted ,one BG holding while the other punches, your spouse grabbing and pleading "don't leave me!, etc.--In fact I'm sure someone somewhere has even broken out of a Full Nelson applied by a wrestler by stomping the foot; I've just never met him.
DONNA: Are you going to teach them "mindset" from the start?
It seems to me that this is even more essential for the aerobic/kickboking (Great! next time a rapist or mugger attacks the ladies will be able to out-jab him.)set. I've seen instructors teach CHILDREN techniques I couldn't pull off successfully against someone half my size, let alone twice; OK, I'm ranting.
Donna: In all seriousness what do you consider the essentials for "mindset" for women. From the ladies I've known that have been attacked I've noticed 2 main errors;
#1 Reverse "machismo". Or mother was a paranoid fuddy--duddy so it won't happen to me. I don't know of too many men who open the door without checking who it is or who take a stroll through Central Park at night but I have known of women who have done both with unpleasant consequences.
#2 Lack of commitment in a fight or the old "I must be nice at all costs or THEY won't like me" Insane,but not a laughing matter.
--Actually, as a man I've been able to use that to advantage when some drunken punk "invited"
me to a barroom brawl. As I walked away and heard loud accusations of my being a coward
(gasp! Coward! the ultimate male shame/manipulation hot button)
I've replied with "Aw, shucks , and I thought I was just a bad mother and a messy
housekeeper".--
Donna, as a woman and an acomplished martial artist, what is your advice to the ladies?
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Donna,
I'm hesitant to get into this subject, and I hope you don't take this personally, but I think this is a bad idea.
The fighting arts, are just that ... fighting arts and should remain as such. There's too many strip mall karate schools that teach fluff already.
Tae Kwon Do has done itself a disservice by marketting itself the way it has. Now Tae-Bo is making Tae Kwon Do's already bad rep even worse by further removing substance from what was once a legitimate art so it could be marketted for "health benefits". If you watch the Tae-Bo advertisements on TV, their (except Blanks) technique sucks and it's probably because they're not interested in technique.
Tai Chi (aka Taiji) is another example. It became popular in China (later the world) when the Yang style was marketted (after being modified of course) as exercise. Prior to that, Yang style was still very close to the Chen style Taiji that Yang Luchan studied. Chen is very combative, as is Yang style (if you are a closed-door student of the Yang family), but most of the tai chi players you see couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. In fact, a lot of tai chi players will "correct" you if you ask about the art's combat aspects, by telling you that "tai chi is for exercise".
Aikido is yet another example. The Aikido that is prominent today is a far cry from the old, rough & tumble "pre-war" Aikido styles (ex. Yoshinkan), because Ueshiba became very spiritual in his later years. It's even further from the old Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu that Ueshiba had studied and later developed Aikido from. The martial content of Aikido has been removed over the years to make the art more spiritual (as opposed to making the art into a form of exercise), but the result is the same. When you remove the martial content, the essence of the fighting art is lost, and what is left is a shadow of the art.
The reason everyone isn't drawn to the fighting arts is because not everyone has what it takes to be a warrior. The path of the warrior is a tough one, that is not for everyone. Real fighting arts are too hard for the average person, including the Tae-Bo and "tai chi for health" people.
Donna, I believe from "talking" to you (on the forums) that you would not intentionally turn your class into another Tae-Bo or "Tai Chi for health". Keep in mind however, that if you teach through the YMCA, you will have to conform to their parameters and expectations. You'll get to choose the content of your class only as long as it conforms to what they want, and what they want is NOT fighting arts. If you conform to their parameters, then I too am concerned that some might get a false sense of security because they think that they're developing fighting skills.
If you want to expose more people to the FMA, something that I'd love to do too, then it should be done in a way that exposes them to the real art. Maybe the YMCA would let you do some demos. I'm sure your community has various public events throughout the year where you could do demos as well. Maybe have a public demo at your school and advertise it in the local press.
I've said my piece, and I know that you'll do whatever you think is best, so I'll close by wishing you the best of luck whatever you decide.
Sincerely,
Dave
P.S. I highly recommend that you find out how much control you will have over the class content before entering into an agreement with the YMCA.
[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 23 December 1999).]
I'm hesitant to get into this subject, and I hope you don't take this personally, but I think this is a bad idea.
The fighting arts, are just that ... fighting arts and should remain as such. There's too many strip mall karate schools that teach fluff already.
Tae Kwon Do has done itself a disservice by marketting itself the way it has. Now Tae-Bo is making Tae Kwon Do's already bad rep even worse by further removing substance from what was once a legitimate art so it could be marketted for "health benefits". If you watch the Tae-Bo advertisements on TV, their (except Blanks) technique sucks and it's probably because they're not interested in technique.
Tai Chi (aka Taiji) is another example. It became popular in China (later the world) when the Yang style was marketted (after being modified of course) as exercise. Prior to that, Yang style was still very close to the Chen style Taiji that Yang Luchan studied. Chen is very combative, as is Yang style (if you are a closed-door student of the Yang family), but most of the tai chi players you see couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. In fact, a lot of tai chi players will "correct" you if you ask about the art's combat aspects, by telling you that "tai chi is for exercise".
Aikido is yet another example. The Aikido that is prominent today is a far cry from the old, rough & tumble "pre-war" Aikido styles (ex. Yoshinkan), because Ueshiba became very spiritual in his later years. It's even further from the old Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu that Ueshiba had studied and later developed Aikido from. The martial content of Aikido has been removed over the years to make the art more spiritual (as opposed to making the art into a form of exercise), but the result is the same. When you remove the martial content, the essence of the fighting art is lost, and what is left is a shadow of the art.
The reason everyone isn't drawn to the fighting arts is because not everyone has what it takes to be a warrior. The path of the warrior is a tough one, that is not for everyone. Real fighting arts are too hard for the average person, including the Tae-Bo and "tai chi for health" people.
Donna, I believe from "talking" to you (on the forums) that you would not intentionally turn your class into another Tae-Bo or "Tai Chi for health". Keep in mind however, that if you teach through the YMCA, you will have to conform to their parameters and expectations. You'll get to choose the content of your class only as long as it conforms to what they want, and what they want is NOT fighting arts. If you conform to their parameters, then I too am concerned that some might get a false sense of security because they think that they're developing fighting skills.
If you want to expose more people to the FMA, something that I'd love to do too, then it should be done in a way that exposes them to the real art. Maybe the YMCA would let you do some demos. I'm sure your community has various public events throughout the year where you could do demos as well. Maybe have a public demo at your school and advertise it in the local press.
I've said my piece, and I know that you'll do whatever you think is best, so I'll close by wishing you the best of luck whatever you decide.
Sincerely,
Dave
P.S. I highly recommend that you find out how much control you will have over the class content before entering into an agreement with the YMCA.
[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 23 December 1999).]
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donna i think that is a good idea if it work (the goals you want to achieve). unlike what a lot of people think, i know lots of people who do aerobics kickboxing kinds of classes, and none of them are so impressionable they think they can fight, they know the diffeence.
the class might get more people to look at kali more seriously and that is always good. when i teach martial art for fitness, i always save the last five or ten minute for some kind of defense technique. i know it is not enough, but it is better than none at all.
perhaps your repitition can use real technique that you showed them the right way to do it (instead of just flop your arm out with no understanding).
good luck
the class might get more people to look at kali more seriously and that is always good. when i teach martial art for fitness, i always save the last five or ten minute for some kind of defense technique. i know it is not enough, but it is better than none at all.
perhaps your repitition can use real technique that you showed them the right way to do it (instead of just flop your arm out with no understanding).
good luck
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Donna and I spoke for over an hour about this subject before she even started this Thread.
Almost without exception we hashed and re-hashed every bad thing said in here!
You can give someone something, in a movement and not even tell them what they are getting folks, you do not have to add in a bunch of B.S., flowery movements like Blanks has done with Tie-Goo, I think her intent is to do basic stick strikes and footwork rapidly meaning, why do "Step Aerobics?" Get the footwork in there! Ha!
I don't think anyone can control Donna, and if the YMCA tries to, I think she will bail out.
Personally, as a side note, The Boy Scouts of America used to teach the Staff, a long time ago, have they dropped archery now too? What about shooting? Egad! Say it isn't so. The BSA should have Kali Instructors and Firearms Instructors, the world would indeed be a better place for it.
Almost without exception we hashed and re-hashed every bad thing said in here!
You can give someone something, in a movement and not even tell them what they are getting folks, you do not have to add in a bunch of B.S., flowery movements like Blanks has done with Tie-Goo, I think her intent is to do basic stick strikes and footwork rapidly meaning, why do "Step Aerobics?" Get the footwork in there! Ha!
I don't think anyone can control Donna, and if the YMCA tries to, I think she will bail out.
Personally, as a side note, The Boy Scouts of America used to teach the Staff, a long time ago, have they dropped archery now too? What about shooting? Egad! Say it isn't so. The BSA should have Kali Instructors and Firearms Instructors, the world would indeed be a better place for it.
Most people who do Tae Bo or cardiokickboxing do not suddenly think that they are fighters. I do not participate in this activity but since I'm attend college in New York City and work in a law firm I encounter a lot of people and a meet quite a few students who do it or people who have wives who do it. Everyone I encountered is doing it because it is a fun exercise and breaks up a monotonous workout schedule.
This is just a silly thing that "martial artists" like to say to show that they're "superior." Something like, "Oh they must think they can fight now, look at how dumb they are." I'd have my money on someone who was in shape from doing Tae Bo than most martial artists who are out of shape any day.
Jason
This is just a silly thing that "martial artists" like to say to show that they're "superior." Something like, "Oh they must think they can fight now, look at how dumb they are." I'd have my money on someone who was in shape from doing Tae Bo than most martial artists who are out of shape any day.
Jason
Thank you, Jason.
Because you have touched on precisely the reasons that I do TAE BO daily; to get into better shape, and to do so by using motions that will also train the muscles that I will need for martial purposes.
As such, I modify it for myself. Rather than do higher kicks, I'll do shin kicks at thigh/knee level. Rather than do a jumping kick, I'll kick to both knees with one foot without touching down. Rather than speedbag, I'll do chain punching.
I'd be interested in whatever statistics there might be to see what increase in enrollment in dojos/dojangs/kwoons/schools comes from an interest in the actual arts brought about from TAE BO and its competitors. I'm grateful that Banks Sabumnim has developed a way of getting in better cardiovascular shape that I can use.
Donna will be getting some students that want nothing but a good aerobic workout., Others will be intrigued with the Arnis, and she will tell them where they take classes, or they will lobby the YMCA for such classes.
As I see it, IMHO, the real question is what are you selling? TAE BO is a workout, period. It's sold as such. Blanks Sabumnim has been quoted as saying he hopes it will get people interested in the actual arts.
I hope he's right.
Good luck to Sticks & Kicks & Knives That Flick and Nick, Take Your Pick, There's The Trick....
(Okay. I'm feeling much better now.)
Sigh. More ("ABS! ABS!") training....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited 24 December 1999).]
Because you have touched on precisely the reasons that I do TAE BO daily; to get into better shape, and to do so by using motions that will also train the muscles that I will need for martial purposes.
As such, I modify it for myself. Rather than do higher kicks, I'll do shin kicks at thigh/knee level. Rather than do a jumping kick, I'll kick to both knees with one foot without touching down. Rather than speedbag, I'll do chain punching.
I'd be interested in whatever statistics there might be to see what increase in enrollment in dojos/dojangs/kwoons/schools comes from an interest in the actual arts brought about from TAE BO and its competitors. I'm grateful that Banks Sabumnim has developed a way of getting in better cardiovascular shape that I can use.
Donna will be getting some students that want nothing but a good aerobic workout., Others will be intrigued with the Arnis, and she will tell them where they take classes, or they will lobby the YMCA for such classes.
As I see it, IMHO, the real question is what are you selling? TAE BO is a workout, period. It's sold as such. Blanks Sabumnim has been quoted as saying he hopes it will get people interested in the actual arts.
I hope he's right.
Good luck to Sticks & Kicks & Knives That Flick and Nick, Take Your Pick, There's The Trick....
(Okay. I'm feeling much better now.)
Sigh. More ("ABS! ABS!") training....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited 24 December 1999).]
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Actually, there was a woman on the "Infommercial" (how do you spell a word that does not exist?) who specifically stated that she felt that she had learned to defend herself, and Billy Blanks left the statement remain, now, you and I both know that this was left in there as a selling point.
As a rule, I do not even like competition shooting to be passed off as defensive shooting. I think the same thing applies here, competition is not self-defense, and neither is this. You can learn to front kick by learning to punt, that does not make football a martial art either.
I think concern is warranted, things that are watered down often cater to those in society who do not want to accept the world for what it really is. I compare this to encouraging women to use .22, .35 and .32 caliber pistols for self-defense, instead of something more substantial, because real defensive handguns are usually more bulky, heavier and harder to control.
As a rule, I do not even like competition shooting to be passed off as defensive shooting. I think the same thing applies here, competition is not self-defense, and neither is this. You can learn to front kick by learning to punt, that does not make football a martial art either.
I think concern is warranted, things that are watered down often cater to those in society who do not want to accept the world for what it really is. I compare this to encouraging women to use .22, .35 and .32 caliber pistols for self-defense, instead of something more substantial, because real defensive handguns are usually more bulky, heavier and harder to control.
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D,
Some people can push themselves to emulate someone and they end up screwing themselves up because they are not being supervised properly. Or, they can be pushed to do it, which is even worse. Most people can kick high if they consistently stretch and have some supervision, I mean, this is not rocket science! However, I can see where if the person is more of an aerobics instructor then a martial artist, that this could happen very easily.
Some people can push themselves to emulate someone and they end up screwing themselves up because they are not being supervised properly. Or, they can be pushed to do it, which is even worse. Most people can kick high if they consistently stretch and have some supervision, I mean, this is not rocket science! However, I can see where if the person is more of an aerobics instructor then a martial artist, that this could happen very easily.
Hi Donna and Everyone!
Sorry I haven't been around, The holidays really got me tied up.
I spoke to some members at my school, I got mixed reviews. I think it's a good way to atleast get women,men (please don't use the word chicks to discribe us! You wouldn't want me to discribe you as d***s?!, Thank you
) in shape and ready for the FMA and get the FMA exposed somehow. I trust your skills, Donna and I know you'll keep the FMA is a good light. I was trying to brainstorm on how we all can give the FMA more exposure. I want FMA to be the Martial Arts of 2000!!!! It's about time!!! The other arts had their time. Come on Guys! I know how selfish we are about our FMA, and how we want to keep those secerets to ourselves, I'd love for it to be known in every household and have respect. You know when you tell people what you train in you still get "huh?" what? " like karate, right?" I love my country and I'd like it to be known other than just a 3rd world country.
Good luck Donna!
Wileen L. Arellano
Bakbakan International, NAHQ
Director of Public Relations
Sorry I haven't been around, The holidays really got me tied up.
I spoke to some members at my school, I got mixed reviews. I think it's a good way to atleast get women,men (please don't use the word chicks to discribe us! You wouldn't want me to discribe you as d***s?!, Thank you
Good luck Donna!
Wileen L. Arellano
Bakbakan International, NAHQ
Director of Public Relations
Wileen: sorry for the "chicks with sticks" thing, it wasn't meant as any type of an insult. was only trying to come up with a rhyme there! i've heard a lot worse from both men and women (and the majority of the people i work with are women) than "chicks" as well as "d**ks". i've learned that one has to have a thick skin and a sense of humor cause no matter how you try to make it so, the world isn't always gonna be politically correct and we're gonna p.o. somebody over something that may seem to be a play on words to somebody else..
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Willen,
In a society that strives for individual enlightenment and political enlightenment, your philosophy would be sound, robust and "the way to go."
Unfortunately, that is not the case.
We have a hard enough time keeping our overall right to keep and bear arms somewhat intact and the distaste the American People are showing regarding firearms and self-defense issues is depressing to say the least...now knives? Whew, that really makes the uninitiated start to pee their pants.
I would prefer the FMA's stay in the shadows for the most part not that they should be considered "dark" or any of that mystical nonsense that some would put forth, but in order to preserve them. To put them in the forefront would inevitably result in them being eventually "watered down" (I know that statement will be unpopular) or possibly legislated.
There are already rumblings of legislating martial arts, and most of that is directed at what I consider "sports." What do you think they are going to do if a real martial art gains notoriety?
In a society that strives for individual enlightenment and political enlightenment, your philosophy would be sound, robust and "the way to go."
Unfortunately, that is not the case.
We have a hard enough time keeping our overall right to keep and bear arms somewhat intact and the distaste the American People are showing regarding firearms and self-defense issues is depressing to say the least...now knives? Whew, that really makes the uninitiated start to pee their pants.
I would prefer the FMA's stay in the shadows for the most part not that they should be considered "dark" or any of that mystical nonsense that some would put forth, but in order to preserve them. To put them in the forefront would inevitably result in them being eventually "watered down" (I know that statement will be unpopular) or possibly legislated.
There are already rumblings of legislating martial arts, and most of that is directed at what I consider "sports." What do you think they are going to do if a real martial art gains notoriety?