Karambit EDC carry legality in Canada

[ExArchAngel]

Hi! I'm new to the forum but have been into knives for a while and I was just curious as to what you guys think of the way the law is worded up here in Canada where I happen to be living (for now). I'm a musician by trade and see the value in carrying a pocket knife for various random cutting tasks, peeling apples, opening those difficult snack packages, hell I even use it in the kitchen sometimes depending on the situation

I have a Fox-599 karambit. A (what I would call) nice knife with great grippy G10 handles that fit my hand extremely comfortably, and a 2 1/4" N690CO blade coated in teflon (which makes the knife VERY easy to clean, highly recommend it).

ANYWAY- since I don't agree with being stuck with whatever judgement a cop feels like dishing out on a given day, I've taken to looking into the knife laws in Canada.


Here's what I came up with in my searches that RELATIVELY RELATES to knives.

CCC S. 2 Definitions - "Weapon" means any thing used, designed to be used or intended for use (a) in causing death or injury to any person, or (b) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person and, without restricting the foregoing, includes a firearm.

CCC S. 89 (1) Carrying weapon while attending a public meeting - Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any ammunition or prohibited ammunition while the person is attending or is on the way to attend a public meeting.

CCC S.90 (1) Carrying concealed weapon - Every person commits an offence who carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition concealed, unless the person is authorized by the Firearms Act to carry it concealed.

SO- What this means to me, starting at the top, is that you can, under NO circumstances, carry a concealed weapon in Canada. No big deal right? Clip it to your pocket and be done with it. HOWEVER- the G10 on these things is pretty ridiculous, to the point that it will eat the seams on your pockets. You cannot carry any WEAPON to a public meeting. I don't know for sure, but I'm assuming this includes protests, move theaters, schools, etc.

What interests me is the actual definition of a weapon. So if it is designed to be a weapon, it is one, and also, anything used to cause harm, be it a toaster or a phone book, is considered a weapon, even if extremely useless and unconventional.

So, as I know various things about knives in general, I know that they are "neutral" items, considered tools rather than weapons. That being said, the Karambit looks intimidating to some people for WHATEVER reason, so I considered the fact that it may have been originally designed as a weapon.

When I googled "karmbit" the first thing that showed up was www.karambit.com, as obvious resource website that has ALOT of information regarding the knife.

The following excerpt comes from the FAQs on that website:



Q. What can the Karambit be used for?

A. In ancient times it was revered as a symbol of adulthood and responsibility. Today the Karambit is simply a tool. It is, however (based upon design), capable of being used for three different applications. Its primary application is that of a common tool – a utility blade, used for open boxes, cut twine, dig holes, etc. It is mostly carried or used by campers, outdoorsmen (and women) and owned by collectors and knife enthusiasts. Its secondary application is as an ancient Asian artifact; it is a martial-arts training implement. Thus it is used by martial artists in their practice of classical and modern martial arts – specifically Pencak Silat, the heritage trademark of the martial arts of the Indonesian archipelago. Lastly, like any pocket knife in the world or a kitchen knife or a pair of scissors or a screwdriver or whatever you want (fill in the blank here), it can be used by men and women as a tool to ensure personal safety should the need arise.

Q. Well, what exactly is a Karambit?

A: The Karambit (pronounced kah-rahm-bit) is a remarkable utility knife that was born in the Indonesian archipelago with roots in Malaysia and the Philippines. Akin to the Swiss Army knife of today, this was the "pocket knife" of ancient villagers. This extraordinary little personal tool was first documented to be carried around the early 11th century AD and to this very day can be seen in various remote locations throughout the Indonesian islands, parts of Malaysia and the Southern Philippine islands. Made popular in the US by Steve Tarani demonstrations, literature, videos and other educational media, the modern Karambit is based on similar design to its distant ancestors.


This essentially says that the knife was designed as a tool and utility knife, pointing toward the fact that the knife is in fact a TOOL, NOT A WEAPON. That being said, resources say that there are weaponized versions with a tighter curve and longer blade, and when I looked into it, these knives almost have a right angle in the blade:

THOSE are the weaponized versions, as described they have an even more vicious curve, almost to be a HOOK rather than a FORWARD CURVED knife. I can see a distinction between the two.




ALSO- The whole reason I'm making this is because I LIKE MY FOX KARAMBIT. It fits my hand perfectly and the blade does EVERYTHING that I need it to, with less effort than straight bladed knives (in my own opinion). Also my mother is florist so I was raised around floral knives, all of which have a similar curvature to my karambit, making the knife reminiscent of my past and somewhat intuitive to use.


So- What do you guys think? I think I've made my case here, but I'm wondering what you all think.


Cheers, looking forward to hear from the community for the first time!


-Ex.

 

[Taraka]

This is coming perhaps quite late but for the sake of anyone else that might stumble across it.....

(Just fyi I faced seven charges related to carrying a number of knives for my edc on two separate occasions and went to court and had them all thrown out and walked away clean because the police and prosecution failed to establish proper constitution of all charges....they were possession of a weapon for dangerous purpose, concealment and etc..)

So pretty much the way Canadian knife law works is that it almost exclusively depends on the intent element for the knife itself. (This does not include automatics, butterfly knives, push daggers, and knives with integral clear brass knuckle guards.)

It says you can't have a "weapon" on you and the way that is defined is like you had said is by either you say you will hurt someone with whatever it is, or you actually did hurt someone with the object. That little part that talks about it being purposely designed is so gray that it almost doesn't matter.....they can pretty much expand upon any knife's combative application though as long as you can back up it's utilitarian applications you'll be fine. In short just know the knife you are carrying and how you would use it lawfully.

Concealment is defined by taking clear steps to make sure the knife itself is not shown physically to the public.....So pretty much that happens by you saying you were actually putting it somewhere to hide it. Or the object is found in something like a special hidden compartment within a backpack for vehicle.
Concealment is not defined by placing it within your pocket or backpack, those are just modes of transport and that's exactly what you say. Police for the most part I've found not very versed with all these little things but you can add that anyway.


The short history you have gained already legitimizes it's use as a utility item right off the bat and pretty much makes it completely legal. I was arrested for having a cold steel gurkha kukri in san mai myself and it has a split history aswell as being a farm tool/ also used by the gurkha military. Just understand it's practical uses and history along with the work you stated and most people will understand.

The only thing I'd semi question is the ring on the karambit itself....some people say it's an impact device for people, other say glass breaker. I've actually been in shops that sell illegal impact devices though hiding behind the "glass breaker" term they are completely safe from being things that people could be charged with. In the end I'd say the karambit is fine as it is a good easy to control utility blade with it's own strengths and weaknesses, don't let people label it wrongly because they are ignorant.

Lastly as when I was arrested if you are questioned "where you would ever get such a diabolical device!"just say "Bought it off knivezone....or outdoor pursuits" or pretty much any other legal vendor and if they are going to try and take you in you tell them to go arrest the distributor aswell and charge them with possession of a weapon for purposes dangerous to the public x334....which would be literally 3340 years in prison...or however many knives they have in stock.

 

[welsh]

It took two years for the OP to get an answer, but at least he got an answer.

Intent is half the criminal law in Canada, but there are a couple of points that bear clarifying here, again for the sake of anyone who might stumble across it:

It says you can't have a "weapon" on you and the way that is defined is like you had said is by either you say you will hurt someone with whatever it is, or you actually did hurt someone with the object.

The most common way people run into trouble is by admitting the knife is a weapon, i.e. by saying something dumb. But it's important to understand that you can swear up and down that the knife is a tool, and the court is not obligated to take your word for it. The judge is going to look at the totality of the circumstances. If for example you carry a 6-inch Cold Steel Ti-Lite while on a midnight, drunken crawl from bar to bar, your statement that it's a tool used to open packages is not going to look so credible.

I can think of a couple of examples from the case law where the court considered the design of the knife in concluding whether it was a weapon, one going each way. (On the question of design, I'm not aware of an example from the case law, but one of these days an enterprising Crown Attorney is going to look at how a particular knife is marketed and use that to argue that it is designed as a weapon....)

In short, being able to say you have a legitimate, utilitarian use for a knife isn't a stay-out-of-jail-free card.

Concealment is not defined by placing it within your pocket or backpack, those are just modes of transport and that's exactly what you say.

This is true most of the time, but I'm aware of one instance from the case law where a woman was convicted of carrying a concealed weapon for carrying a knife in her purse, although she said that the only reason she kept it in her purse was that it was a convenient way to carry it. The court reasoned that a reasonable person knows that placing a weapon in a bag has the effect of concealing it, and this knowledge established the intent to conceal.

What was critical in that case was that the woman had already admitted the knife was a weapon, which of course is a big mistake. Once something is established to be a weapon, the courts take a very dim view of concealing it in any way.

There are grey areas here that give a judge conceptual wiggle room. I don't wish to argue with Taraka's valuable post, just to suggest that people be aware of the grey areas here ... if a judge looks at the totality of the evidence and decides you're blameworthy, he'll use that wiggle room to reason his way to a guilty verdict.

 

[Taraka]

A bit late but yes I agree completely with Welsh on his points, it is both dangerous and advantageous that Canadian law leaves these definitions within a grey area. It's good because it allows the justice system to ignore the more anal points of law as I was specifically told by a number of justice officials that in the end they pursue the "spirit" of justice rather than cold hard facts most of the time as people not really attempting to cause trouble sometimes stumble a bit and are not inherit ally "bad"

On the other hand they could very easily use your ignorance of the law as leverage against you both on the scene of a stop by asking you specific questions to rally intent or by cross examination on the stand. The prosecution was split into two days for me so they had someone sit in the first trial to observe me and character witnesses that took the stand to get an edge. Though the prosecution was faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary of me being a genuine danger they pursued a murky sense of their own belief that no one should be allowed to carry knives. The crown actually did google searches overnight and attempted to get me to classify as to what kind of survivalist I was, I don't like the term as it's rather loaded but I use it to make more concise points. The crown then shot a gauntlet of questions regarding whether or not I'd help someone who was in danger on the street and other places, seriously harming someone is not in my best interest though and living in the inner city I am not as shaken when tension rises so I knew I'd be able to refrain from such impulses and still be able to assist.

Reinforcing Welsh again with "concealment" that you must be transparent with your tool and do not simply carry a knife with the intent of using as a weapon as this causes many more problems then it would solve.

In the end you must understand that we are as a society anarchistic in nature, regardless of what we say and attach ourselves to we will ultimately have a bias no matter what. With what might be potentially used against you will be at the discretion of the police officer on the scene and their view on law, so just remember to be polite and respectful as you should be at all times and again practice being transparent while at the same time not forthcoming.


A question I am often pressed with when confronted by police officers (more than 20) is why I have a knife at all as I tell them I use it to cut cordage stuck up on jackets, fences, bails of straw, hair, remove bee stingers, slice wood for tinder, split wood for kindling, glass breaking in vehicle extraction, cloth cutting for wound assessment, shelter construction, etc. I live within an urban center and true enough the wilderness I walk is one of steel and concrete but the premise of why I carry the knife is the same.
I ask them "Have you shot anyone? have you conducted a firefight in the streets?" they always say no to both for which I then propose "Then why do you carry a gun?" which they answer "Just in case..." The answer is the same, albeit with different uses the knife is a standby tool and if anything at least gives a level of confidence in being prepared to effect it's uses day to day to help yourself and others when the need arises.




Hopefully a little more light is shined within this subject, though I have seen all the stickyness that can come from carrying a knife as a tool I will say though that I still plan to carry one each day for the rest of my life. There is no more versatile a tool than a good quality knife when you have some experience behind it.

 

[robbobus]

The device known as “Brass Knuckles” and any similar device consisting of a band of metal with one or more finger holes designed to fit over the fingers of the hand.

Taken from Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Criminal Code of Canada. The ring on the karambit makes it prohibited. Possession can be prosecuted summarily or by indictment, the latter carrying a potential 10 years incarceration.

 

[stabman]

The device known as “Brass Knuckles” and any similar device consisting of a band of metal with one or more finger holes designed to fit over the fingers of the hand.

Taken from Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Criminal Code of Canada. The ring on the karambit makes it prohibited. Possession can be prosecuted summarily or by indictment, the latter carrying a potential 10 years incarceration.

No, it does not.
The ring is considered to be a retention feature of the handle, not a bashing device.
It is legal across the land, and sold legally in many stores, both online and brinck and mortar.
It...is...not...illegal.

Other knives that one might think would be "no-nos" are also okay, such as knives with a D-guard. It is deemed to be a protective feature.

Now sure, if it's covered in spikes that may be different; the Border folks managed to get the Hibben Claw deemed to have a feature based on punching with the ring, but the ring on that knife has spiky bits protruding for punching with.

Regular karambits are good to go though. :thumbup:

 

[chipdouglas]

No, it does not.
The ring is considered to be a retention feature of the handle, not a bashing device.
It is legal across the land, and sold legally in many stores, both online and brinck and mortar.
It...is...not...illegal.

Other knives that one might think would be "no-nos" are also okay, such as knives with a D-guard. It is deemed to be a protective feature.

Now sure, if it's covered in spikes that may be different; the Border folks managed to get the Hibben Claw deemed to have a feature based on punching with the ring, but the ring on that knife has spiky bits protruding for punching with.

Regular karambits are good to go though. :thumbup:

I agree with you. On a slightly different topic, what would you respond to an LEO if he found you carrying a karambit on your person ? I think you'd (or anyone else in Canada for that matter) be put on the spot. I do not think it would be any different if it were me.

 

[stabman]

I agree with you. On a slightly different topic, what would you respond to an LEO if he found you carrying a karambit on your person ? I think you'd (or anyone else in Canada for that matter) be put on the spot. I do not think it would be any different if it were me.

I've been carrying my karambit in the left front pocket for 7 years now.
I use it when a curved blade works better, and have used it in public many times. People haven't minded at all, and I do not hide it's use.

If talking to a cop, I'd simply explain what I use it for, and that I am a knife collector.
Utility and being a total knife nerd are two valid reasons for carrying a knife in Canada.

 

[BrandoSpoke]

I live in Canada and I personally would not carry a Karambit cause it looks intimidating and could be categorized as a weapon

 

[Oromis]

I live in Canada and I personally would not carry a Karambit cause it looks intimidating and could be categorized as a weapon

At the end a pet bottle is a weapon too on the eyes of law if you use it for that purpose

 

[Oromis]

If you can explain your purpose maybe nothing happens, and maybe they only seize your knife( ı heard some police officers only take the knife (but these examples not from canada) actually this tread is full with very good answers.