Karda, Chakma & fire-starting tool?

Ad Astra

Ad Astra

Joined
Jul 30, 2004
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I'm reading a pretty good coffee-table book called "Swords & Hilt Weapons" B&N books 1996. In the chapter "India & Southeast Asia" writer Frederick Wilkinson covers khukuris briefly but well, and mentions something interesting.

"The kukri (sic) is carried in a sheath which has a small scabbard at the top for two smaller knives and occasionally for fire-making implements as well."

Hmmm. Is this right? Seems like a great idea. As a non-smoker, I don't habitually carry anything to start a fire. I can of course use a flint & steel (like everybody, right?) so hence my question for the forum-

Was there ever traditionally a handled, matching flint tool in with the K&C to be used to start a fire? Or is it just a good idea?

AA
 
The sheaths for the older style knives have a pouch for tinder in the back, behind the tools. My HI hanuman has this, but it's quite perplexing. It's a leather sleeve open at both ends. No more perplexing than the tool with a tiny spoon on the end, though. :confused:
My guess would be that it contained some dry moss or some-such tinder and a piece of flint (an old musket flint?) the chakma would serve as a steel. Some of the old chakmas from Atlanta Cutlery are cut with file or rasp teeth, which would mean they are harder than the current HI ones and would probably strike sparks just fine.
 
I cannot for the life of me, start a fire the ancient way, and believe me I have tried.

If I don't have some kind of lighter and modern starter, Dave dies deep in the forest.


oh well. :(
 
Dave, keep trying. The first thousand attempts are the hardest. :D Pretty much like khukri sharpening, it seems.:rolleyes: Dry tinder is the most important part, and I guess that's why the pouch was considered important. Now, what about that ear-wax spoon tool?
 
Dave, firestarting is a basic warrior skill that's your destiny to learn. Nobody with as many khuks as you should give up at anything. I'm not saying to make an improvised firebow with a bear-hair string. There are flint n' steel combos aplenty that won't let you down like a wet match or an outta juice Zippo.

Bri, that tiny spoon... well, I have no idea. I bet it's obvious to someone, though. Maybe email Pala or AY's family? If there wasn't a need, there wouldn't be a tool for it. It may be archaic, though. For cleaning out your horse's nose in cold weather or something.

AA
 
Trying to use my chakma for making sparks with flint was the first thing I tried when the first khukuri arrived. :D

I must admit there were no sparks, only dents on the chakma. Maybe the wrong flint ?

cosco
 
Soft steel in the chakma is my bet. Anyone out there with a Rockwell tester interested in solving the riddle? I'll send some old ones for testing.
 
Ad Astra said:
Dave, firestarting is a basic warrior skill that's your destiny to learn. Nobody with as many khuks as you should give up at anything. I'm not saying to make an improvised firebow with a bear-hair string. There are flint n' steel combos aplenty that won't let you down like a wet match or an outta juice Zippo.

Bri, that tiny spoon... well, I have no idea. I bet it's obvious to someone, though. Maybe email Pala or AY's family? If there wasn't a need, there wouldn't be a tool for it. It may be archaic, though. For cleaning out your horse's nose in cold weather or something.

AA
Click to expand...

Thanks Ad, Dave will give it a go.

i think that little spoon maybe for digging out the earwax so that you may coat your blade and protect it from rust.

Dave out.
 
Odd that just last night I tried to strike a spark with the chakma from my 15" villager Sirupati. It was too soft. A small file would throw sparks, but not the chakma. This post got me thinking, and I got out an old knuk that came with a tinder pouch, and an all steel chakma. I couldn't strike sparks with it either, but it may just be me. Or it may be the stone I'm using, a piece of chert (?).
Steve

Longwoodw-ironchak100k.jpg
 
Dave Hahn said:
Thanks Ad, Dave will give it a go.

i think that little spoon maybe for digging out the earwax so that you may coat your blade and protect it from rust.

Dave out.
Click to expand...

Now we got it... since we all know how flammable earwax is, the real use of that little spoon is to dig out earwax for kindling purposes... I KNEW the purpose of it would become obvious.

AA

WOW! Steve, nice, nice pic- that khuk is a classic... :eek: :eek:
 
Bri in Chi said:
Soft steel in the chakma is my bet. Anyone out there with a Rockwell tester interested in solving the riddle? I'll send some old ones for testing.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I was just teasing with that flint :D

cosco
 
Wheel lock guns used iron pyrites for spark. I think it's the rock scraping molecules off the steel that causes sparks to form. Help, science guys!

What a pretty khukuri, Steve. Are you sure the chakma is original? Never seen an all-steel one before.
 
Bri in Chi said:
Now, what about that ear-wax spoon tool?
Click to expand...
John Powell mentioned a while back that the ear wax removal tool was more than likely a surgical tool used for probing/finding and removing musket balls.

Bill has stated that it was a tool for the old time button type shoes. Did the Ghorkas ever wear that type of shoe/boot?:confused:

Either sounds reasonable to me but.....

Unless John shows up to give the reasoning for his thought's we may just have to wait on the book.:grumpy: :( ;)
 
The flint scrapes fragments off the steel, the friction creating heat. Caught in water, proper "sparks" struck from the steel are more-or-less teardrop shaped; they were molten as they left the steel. If the steel is too soft, the steel can shave or chip off too easily and not be hot enough. Ragnar (www.ragweedforge.com) sells proper fire steels. Old files are also good. If you have an old "carbon steel" knife that you don't mind nicking up, that is another good candidate.

Practice striking to get sparks first. When you can get sparks, move on to catching them in proper tinder in a nest of dry grass, pine needles, or shreaded twine. The classic tinder is well-charred cotton cloth. BushcraftUK has several thrads on making charred cloth (Basically, you are burning it with a shortage of O [as in a retort]- like producing charcoal.) Some use cotton (real coton) balls with a thin film of petroleum jelly.

Not all flint is equally good at striking sparks. We imported musket flints during the Revolution.

Tom
 
Thomas Linton said:
The classic tinder is well-charred cotton cloth
Click to expand...
That's what we used in boy scouts for F&S firestarting contests
charred to fragile black
on top of nest of pulverized cedar bark

& steel file & grey flint chunk

never won
but not much practical diff between 2 sec & 6 sec


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Very nice old rig you have there, Steve. Is it about 20 inches give or take? Really nice. You may be getting a call from John Powell.
 
For striking/scraping a ferrocerium rod (modern day 'flint') the squared off spine of the back of the karda knife is probably preferred. With my khukuri rig, I've started many fires with the firetool I carry in it's pouch, and for striking the 'flint' (modern, artificial, ferrocerium rod) I always use the back spine of the karda knife I made.

Traditionally, a dedicated striking steel was used to start fires. Only in a pinch was something as valuable as a good knife or other tool used for striking against a piece of hard flint. Unlike a modern, artificial 'flint' which is scraped, a traditional flint is struck.

A while back the image on the khukuri calander showed a very old belt with a khuk and a few other items. Odds were, stuff like the flint striker might have been kept in a separate pouch. That, or the flint and striking steel were simply kept in the tinder pouch with the tinder. There may have been some chakmas designed for also use as a strking steel, but none of those I've ever seen coming from HI are fit to fill that bill.

Here's a picture of a traditional striking steel.

http://www.swampfoxknives.com/page_4.html
04-267.jpg

04-265.jpg


For a traditional steel, there are several made and sold by those who cater to the traditionalist blackpowder crowd. Outfits such as Dixie Gun Works tend to carry traditional flint striking steels.

The Swamp Fox Knives flint striking steels are evidently about $25, which is a bit more than some (maybe $15 more than Dixie Gun Works), but they seem very well made and they definitely have the old time traditional look about them.

The ones sold by Dixie are evidently made from file steel stock and are tempered to Rc65.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com

Here's a painting from the 19th Century American west showing the Indian woman of a White trapper. Notice the flint striker tied to her clothing on a lanyard. It was a regularly used and valued possession.

maidstok.gif
 
Just for the record, I've never had any luck striking sparks with any of my chakmas or kardas. They seem to be too soft.

If you're not into the traditional look or don't have any old/broken files laying around, consider a carbide "sharpener." They throw sparks that must be seen to be believed and can even sharpen a knife if necessary. (They can sharpen a file if necessary, actually.) One of these, bundled with a flint/magnesium block, makes for a compact and light firestarter that's pretty effective.
 
Never much liked the Magnesium, Satori. Too much work for something that doesn't always work well. Also, dulls knives fast and if there's any wind it's *really* difficult. Much better ways to start fires IMO.

Nam
 
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