karda & chakma(k) definitions/etymologies

beoram · Oct 11, 2002

A while back someone was asking not only about the 'meaning' of khukuri (see http://www.himalayan-imports.com/khukuri-history.html ), but also on karda & chakma(k). I knew from Sanskrit that karda was ultimately simply related to cutting, but I got a good Nepali dictionary and thought the relevant entries might be of interest (it's a Nepali-Nepali-English dictionary*, so each word is followed by the definition in Nepali, and then in English):

<quote>karda saano khukurii jasto hatiyar a small Nepalese open knife</quote>

<quote>chakmak aago niskane rhumgo; darshana-rhumgo a kind of hard stone; flint-stone</quote>

note the form chakmak rather than chakma - I think we discussed this before sometime, that is which form was 'correct'. chakmak appears to be the dictionary form, but chakma may well be a variant pronunciation, like in English ath-lete v. ath-e-lete.

also interesting is two other words chaknaa, which means small pieces; slice; cut into slices and chakkuu which is a knife; small weapon for cutting.

and for completeness:

<quote>khukurii nepaaliiharuuko prasiddha jaatiya hatiyaar famous national weapon of the Nepalese; Khukri</quote>

and strange word that caught my eye is gorkhe-lahugii, I don't know if it has anything to do with gorkha, but its definition is 'a kind of vigorous punishment in vogue in Nepal at one time' (?!), though it doesn't say what this punishment was.
----
*cited from:
THuulo nepaalii-nepaalii-angrejii kosha: Nepali-Nepali-English Dictionary by (so far as I can make out, as the preface, title page is all in Nepali) Vidyaamahaavaaridhi, (Daa-[doctor??]) Paarasamashi Pradyan, Nagebdramashi Pradyan Samkalit [unless this is one person with lots of titles?! rather than three people

??] published Kalimpong (West Bengal, India): Bhagyamani Prakashan, 1983.

Bill Martino · Oct 11, 2002

Thanks for good stuff, Beo. A lot of words (chakma, Surya Benai, et al) I use are spelled kami style and one must remember most cannot read or write.

beoram · Oct 11, 2002

Uncle Bill - I guessed chakma was probably the kamis' pronunciation - I can easily see how chakmak could change to chakma too.

Bill Martino · Oct 12, 2002

I know a lot of my spelling is incorrect but the kamis and folks like them taught me most of what I know so I maintain the improper spelling out of deference to them. It's some kind of strange loyalty system I maintain primarily for myself.

John Powell · Oct 12, 2002

Beo,
What is the date on your dictionary? I have seen different (but close) definitions for the words you mentioned depending on published dates. What these dictionaries try to do is take something heard or interpreted by only one jat. This can cause lots of confusion. The word 'kothimora' vs 'kothimoda' is a good example.

The word "chakmak" is widely used througout that part of Asia. Many believe it is actually a Tibetan word that has been redefined and redfined again.

beoram · Oct 12, 2002

JP,
The dictionary is from 1983. The idea of a Tibetan origin for chakmak is interesting. I don't know any Tibetan or Burmese or related languages, so of course I don't know much on that side. I can't find an obvious Sanskritic source, but considering that there's a 2000 year gap between Sanskrit & modern day Nepali that isn't definitive. I would about chaknaa and chakku - if they are related to chakma(k) and/or non-Aryan in origin..

Not sure about kothimoda/kothimora - I've never seen the devanagari form - it could just be a transliteration problem? Because there's a 'Indian' sound, a couple of them actually, which sound somewhere inbetween an English D or R - Bura is a good example, one could probably also write Buda (if one just pronounces Bura as it stands in roman transliteration it would mean 'bad' rather than 'old'). So I wonder whether if the 'd' of kothimoda is one of these sounds.

--Ben

John Powell · Oct 12, 2002

Beo,
You're correct about the 'd' and 'r' in kothimora. That's straight from the mouth (excuse the pun) of the Gurkhas and the English curator at the Gurkha Museum in Winchester.

It is admittedly very difficult to properly put some words that are truly untranslateable into some form of English that is acceptable.

Gotta run. The Blue Angels are just starting their show and it's a perfect day for a great demonstration. Just ask Bill how good Navy pilots are!

beoram · Oct 13, 2002

Well, it's gratifying to have hit on the right analysis of kothimoda

But in a way that's a problem with representing Nepali in roman letters (which can be done, but requires something like IPA [International Phonetic Alphabet]) than a question of variant pronunciations...

The thing I wonder about 'chakma'/'chakmak' is if it is from Tibetan then in a sense we might be seeing the same sort of phenomenon except with the devanagari alphabet. From my beginner's attempts at learning Nepali I'm seen that, for instance, Nepali has problems writing/pronouncing Tibetan names, like 'ts' clusters (which change into chh in nepali)..

John Powell · Oct 13, 2002

Beo,
And people think I'm nuts trying to track down little bits of info on kukris and koras. You are attempting to learn a language that has more dialects and transitions than any I know of.

Even 2 Gurkhas will disagree about words. The transliteration or even trying to convert the sanskrit based letters to Roman type seems like a job for Sisyphus.

I wish you the best of luck and then I'll come to you for translating marked blades!

JAY H · Oct 14, 2002

Same thing goes in martial arts (Korean Sam and San) mean the same, depends with what book or school you study. Different dilelect sort of like down south or out west USA.