Kata, martial arts and miscellanea

[Scara]

So a good conversation started about kata, martial arts, belt collectors and such. You can see it here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1235365-Deals-for-11-12-Pix-Knives-and-Beautiful-Offerings/page2

But since that was in a sales thread, I thought it might be a good idea to move the discussion here. So let's get started.

Ah, yes, I understand, My feelings about belts are, to quote Mr Miyagi from Karate Kid "In Okinawa, belt mean no need rope to hold up pants" . For me being a woman I have a number of belts some really pretty colors and some just plain leather. Only a couple of "Rank" belts. Seriously since it looks like I have traveled as far as I will be able to in Kendo, I doubt any additional belts will be in my future except the ones I can buy at a dept store. Just to put my gripe out there, We shouldn't have to take the Kyoshi test in Japanese :grumpy: my brain and Kanji are OK, but when you add hiragana and katakana it mixes too many languages in my brain and I sound like a 3 year old. Right noun and verb, but wrong structure and adjectives. No possibility of passing the test in what is equivelent to kindergartner speak.

So in order to gain in rank in a martial art you have to speak significant amounts of Japanese? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[davidf99]

Shavru can clarify her comment, but I believe she is referring only to the highest ranks in kendo, not other martial arts, and I'm pretty sure it is a written test. My son has a second degree black belt in Judo, Japan-certified, and he does not speak or write Japanese. I won't vouch for his English, either, but don't tell him I said that.

There are, of course, many martial arts that are not Japanese at all.

On the question of kata, in some martial arts the kata are not just to prepare a student for combat, but also serve as physical and mental conditioning and can have a meditative quality. I used to do Tai Chi before knee problems intervened. When the class did slow-motion Tai Chi (so that a complete set took about 45 minutes), the floor would be completely covered in sweat that poured off the students. The master and some of the most advanced students could do the whole set in slow motion without excessive sweating. But then, they could also do standing meditation (with arms extended) for two hours and longer. It is as much mental as physical, and it has huge benefits even if you never use it in combat.

The reason I emphasize this is that the original thread was about knife-fighting. With a little luck you could go your entire life without ever having a single real knife-fight. Therefore, most of the benefit is likely to be from the exercise and fun you get in practicing. Whether that involves doing "forms" or just practicing a few moves depends on your preferences. If you don't have a practice partner at the same skill level, you won't have much chance to enjoy practice combat.

Back to Judo: A good Judo player will know many techniques, but the top people who compete in tournaments usually have one or two special moves that they have perfected and use to win most of their matches. A good example is the MMA fighter, Rhonda Rousey, originally an Olympic level Judo player. She has won every one of her MMA matches to date with the arm-bar. Her opponents know it's coming, but can't stop it. Of course she has mastered a variety of techniques that enable her to soften up and set up an opponent for that final submission. Thing is, in order to get the superb conditioning needed to compete in MMA, she has to do a lot more than practice that one move.

 

[Shavru]

Yes Scara, My primary martial art is Kendo, though I employ parts of probably 14 different arts from around the world that I have studied at one time or another (which actually made it much more difficult to pass my test for my current Dan since those tests are VERY specific and just because there is a better counter to a move in another art doesn't mean you should use it even in Ji-Geiko during your tests LOL) In Kendo once you reach a certain Dan (6th) then there is a Shogo system that parallels the Dan. BTW, we can no longer progress past 8th Dan in Kendo because the last remaining 10th Dan died so there is no one to test a 9th Dan anymore. In the Shogo system there are Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi which basically mean that you are someone that younger Kendoka should strive to emulate. It also is where you are rewarded for your decision making skills so those kata don't become too static . Renshi and Kyoshi both require a written test while Hanshi is an elected honor. Renshi can be translated and the test taken in English (or other languages ) while Kyoshi must be written in Japanese. And my discipline means if I want to move up in these Shogo honors I must learn and take the test in... Japanese. I still have Dan left to go before it is an issue but since we were talking belts, my belt will not ever change, unless I earn this honorific. So that is how I got there from the original belt thread Also I can't ever be elected Hanshi unless I first pass the danged Kyoshi test.... Again I point out. this isn't an issue for me currently as I have years left before I can even take my next Dan testing. But since the discussion was on new belts, the Dans all have the same belt so this would be the only way I could get a different one in Kendo now.

 

[Scara]

Yeah when I said gain rank in a martial art I mostly meant that I found it a little ridiculous that in order to gain rank in Kendo, a martial art, one would have to learn some degree of Japanese, a skill that doesn't seem all that directly related. I suspect this attitude would probably get me kicked out of some dojos, but I tend to go straight to the point, and especially with martial arts that I would learn for the purpose of defending myself, I would be more focused on getting to that point. I understand that I'm unlikely ever to get in a knife fight, but like I said, I tend to be a "get to the point" person. And I also know that a lot of the systems that have some of these other things associated with them, like the stuff David mentioned, have good things to recommend them, but I don't think they would be a good fit for me.

 

[gurkha berserka]

Yeah when I said gain rank in a martial art I mostly meant that I found it a little ridiculous that in order to gain rank in Kendo, a martial art, one would have to learn some degree of Japanese, a skill that doesn't seem all that directly related. I suspect this attitude would probably get me kicked out of some dojos, but I tend to go straight to the point, and especially with martial arts that I would learn for the purpose of defending myself, I would be more focused on getting to that point. I understand that I'm unlikely ever to get in a knife fight, but like I said, I tend to be a "get to the point" person. And I also know that a lot of the systems that have some of these other things associated with them, like the stuff David mentioned, have good things to recommend them, but I don't think they would be a good fit for me.

I hear you on that Scara...The Japanese have a very strict doctrine when it comes to Kendo and many other things in their culture. Take the tea ceremony for instance...bowl position, hand position, bowl rotation, among many other things all have special meaning. I tend to agree with you that "ritual" tends to get tedious at times. Believe me I know... I have been doing Masonic ritual for years, but I find new meaning within the ritual every time I take part in one. There is a point behind all that ritual even though our modern rush rush attitude might dilute the true meaning of these things.

I find myself becoming impatient and wanting all knowledge "right now". I am in the same boat as the rest of us when it comes to wanting it now. I try and temper my desires for "everything now" but its very hard in todays world when just about any information is a key stroke away. I have been wanting to get into kendo for years but alas there are no Kendo schools in my area... that and I don't have a small fortune to spend on equipment. I would rather buy HI kukri's

 

[Shavru]

hmm Bogu, Shinai or HI khuks. Well, Since I already had all the gear prior to finding HI I don't have that problem. And VERY glad of that is what I am. Would be a tough call for me these days

Ritual is usually good. As GB says these days we have a tendancy to rush through and only see the surface, not looking within things because we are off to the next thing before the last is properly completed. Sometimes we just want to know the quick how. Other times knowing all the details is better.

 

[cul4u01]

Ritual is usually good. As GB says these days we have a tendancy to rush through and only see the surface, not looking within things because we are off to the next thing before the last is properly completed. Sometimes we just want to know the quick how.

It is important to get the basics down, firstly, and then only move on until you understand the theory, concept, and usage, of each subsequent move learned.

ie. The way I learned, isn't even taught anymore, except for maybe in Shaolin. When I first started, I had to practice the 1 basic "horse" stance, for about 18 months, nothing else, just standing there in the stance for at least 3-5 hours a day. Then I learned the next "Horse" stance, and I would then do both stances each day for about 2 -4 hours a day, for 3 months or so. Then I would learn a new stance every 3 months, and go through the same ritual. I didn't learn how to punch/block, or anything, for almost 4-5 years. I would be shown one move in a set, and then you went off to practice on your own. You had to figure out how to do it, what it was for, and the concept behind it. My master would come by every once in awhile, watch you, and if you had it right, he would show you the next move. If not, he just walked away, without saying a word. It took me 3 years to learn just one set, after that, I was learning sets pretty quick, because I had learned how to apply the move correctly, by understanding the theory and concept behind its application. It was another 10-15 years before I learned weapons. By understanding a movement, you learn to be able to adapt, and modify your movements as needed. We used to go to Hong Kong, and China, for full contact competitions (no pads or protective gear), I can honestly say, I was able to go quite far in the competition, I've only won 2-3 times, but the experience is unlike anything I have ever experienced.

Obviously, they no longer teach this way, because students now a days, prefer to learn quickly, and refuse to pay for lessons that are taught in the "old style", because it takes too long, and boring. One thing I can say, I have sparred with many a "Black Belt", they look really fancy, confident, and schooled, but they are too stuck on form, and not really understanding the underlying concept of the art, and thus, are unable to adapt when needed, thus, they are defeated easily. They always ask, "How did you do that?", I always respond, "How is it that you don't know?, Let me show you". They are so surprised at the ease of the lesson, but are unsure as to how is it that I knew this, and they did not, even though the move is quite the same. I just tell them, don't concentrate on going forward, but go back, and try to understand every single technique that you ever learned.

 

[Scara]

It is important to get the basics down, firstly, and then only move on until you understand the theory, concept, and usage, of each subsequent move learned.

ie. The way I learned, isn't even taught anymore, except for maybe in Shaolin. When I first started, I had to practice the 1 basic "horse" stance, for about 18 months, nothing else, just standing there in the stance for at least 3-5 hours a day. Then I learned the next "Horse" stance, and I would then do both stances each day for about 2 -4 hours a day, for 3 months or so. Then I would learn a new stance every 3 months, and go through the same ritual. I didn't learn how to punch/block, or anything, for almost 4-5 years. I would be shown one move in a set, and then you went off to practice on your own. You had to figure out how to do it, what it was for, and the concept behind it. My master would come by every once in awhile, watch you, and if you had it right, he would show you the next move. If not, he just walked away, without saying a word. It took me 3 years to learn just one set, after that, I was learning sets pretty quick, because I had learned how to apply the move correctly, by understanding the theory and concept behind its application. It was another 10-15 years before I learned weapons. By understanding a movement, you learn to be able to adapt, and modify your movements as needed. We used to go to Hong Kong, and China, for full contact competitions (no pads or protective gear), I can honestly say, I was able to go quite far in the competition, I've only won 2-3 times, but the experience is unlike anything I have ever experienced.

Obviously, they no longer teach this way, because students now a days, prefer to learn quickly, and refuse to pay for lessons that are taught in the "old style", because it takes too long, and boring. One thing I can say, I have sparred with many a "Black Belt", they look really fancy, confident, and schooled, but they are too stuck on form, and not really understanding the underlying concept of the art, and thus, are unable to adapt when needed, thus, they are defeated easily. They always ask, "How did you do that?", I always respond, "How is it that you don't know?, Let me show you". They are so surprised at the ease of the lesson, but are unsure as to how is it that I knew this, and they did not, even though the move is quite the same. I just tell them, don't concentrate on going forward, but go back, and try to understand every single technique that you ever learned.

There seem to be two schools of thought when it comes to martial arts. There's the give it to me now school and the older, ritualistic school. To be honest, I'm not going to say one is superior to the other. From the point of view of learning a martial art so that after one session you can begin to defend yourself in an altercation, the no-ritual, no tradition school has merit. Same goes if you have to teach a lot of people at once. As a quick example, Eskrima has little ritual and was designed to teach lots of people how to fight quickly. Then there's the slower, ritualistic school of thought which can result in someone amazingly good at it, but takes a long time to get there.

I have to say though, the more I talk to others, the more I realize how unorthodox what I'm learning is. My instructor (who admittedly is far away and I learn through his book and correspondence with him) has gone through similar stuff to what some of you have described, though he does Yagyu Shinkage Ryu as his sword form in addition to Spanish fencing and dagger fighting, but what he teaches is designed to be faster than the traditional systems. Many of the things he teaches are also quite different from what I hear from others. However everything I'm reading makes sense from the standpoint of self-defense with and against knife attacks. I just wish I could find a sparring partner. I've got someone who is willing, but never available, so I've yet to spar.

 

[Shavru]

OK, I will preface this with the statement this is MY opinion and it is probably completely and utterly wrong for many other folks. Scara, the way you are talking about for training will teach someone how to defend themselves against someone with no training and in many cases that will be enough. It is also a way of training that accounts for the stories you read of one old man defending himself against a pack of 10-30 terrorizing martial arts thugs. Because that old man learned via the style Cul did.

btw, Eskrima is a VERY traditional style and has as much ritual as any school, heck in 1521 when the Spanish first arrived in the Phillipeans the style was already an old tradition for the warriors there. Perhaps the ones you are familiar with don't teach it, but tradition and culture is definately there in the style. Also I can find absolutely no reference to teaching many folks to fight quickly. Instead I found that Eskrima appears to take as many years to learn and master as any other martial art. In fact everything I can find about the topic implies it is so similar to others that even the comment many of the instructors that started teaching non-Phillipean were reprimanded by their elders for "publicly teaching a part of their culture that had been preserved through secrecy" which sounds really familiar to anyone that has learned any martial art. I think almost every Chinese or Japanese martial art followed the same pattern of tradition and culture and "exposure" to the non-whatevers.

Now, there are modern classes that teach the style without the tradition and ritual. (There are even classes that teach Kendo the same way if you just want to learn the basic movements without the ritual.) But these are modern interpretations of the arts and are not the entire art. As you say for you that is what works best, you don't want the extra bits. For Cul what you consider "extra" he finds helps him delve deeper and learn more completely. Neither of you is wrong. They are different goals and so different requirements. I personally learned Kendo not quite as meticulously as Cul's training style, my training was neither as long nor as deep as his. However more similar to his than not. Then other arts I have added, since I had already learned how to learn by understanding the roots of the movement, I can add a new style much faster and still get a moderately deep understanding of how to use it.

The question each person needs to answer is: What are my goals for learning this? Then once you have the answer how you learn is determined. If you just want to be able to survive a street-fight. Then learn the moves and practice them hard. If you want to learn the Art, then the tradition and culture are part of that and should not be ignored. Ok end of my opinion, if you agree great, if not. Well, it is my opinion and nothing more

 

[cul4u01]

Extraordinarily well explained Shavru. Exactly what I wanted to say, but didn't have the time.

 

[J W Bensinger]

My experience of Filipino art, (and the way I learned Silat) is that the old way you are shown the tools-stepping movements, hand movements, etc-in a year or so (if you're really laying into it) and then you spend the next ten years learning to put it together and polishing it. In neither case did I encounter actual "kata"-I was told the Modern Arnis forms were an adaptation to the American style of martial arts instruction, and in Silat almost everything was broken into hand forms, stepping forms, and application (I know that's not true of all silat). I personally prefer that method, but I spent six or seven years in traditional TKD and I'm grateful for the foundation and the discipline.
It was really difficult for me to learn to teach my art to folks who'd never done anything-everyone who trained with Bruce (my teacher) had at least a shodan in something so that just never came up...

 

[gurkha berserka]

Great explanations Shavru...
You said it all.

 

[cul4u01]

My experience of Filipino art, (and the way I learned Silat) is that the old way you are shown the tools-stepping movements, hand movements, etc-in a year or so (if you're really laying into it) and then you spend the next ten years learning to put it together and polishing it. In neither case did I encounter actual "kata"-I was told the Modern Arnis forms were an adaptation to the American style of martial arts instruction, and in Silat almost everything was broken into hand forms, stepping forms, and application (I know that's not true of all silat). I personally prefer that method, but I spent six or seven years in traditional TKD and I'm grateful for the foundation and the discipline.
It was really difficult for me to learn to teach my art to folks who'd never done anything-everyone who trained with Bruce (my teacher) had at least a shodan in something so that just never came up...

:thumbup:

 

[Scara]

Yeah, looking back Eskrima wasn't a good example. Roman legions would have been a better example of what I was thinking, where four months of training was sufficient for a legionary to go to his legion, and those four months were not spent entirely on hand to hand combat. Among them were marching, swimming where possible, formations, pilum throwing, and swordsmanship. And all this was considered sufficient for training a foot soldier of one of the most effective armed forces ever. Granted they weren't thrown straight into combat out of training and they would practice every single day, but four months was considered sufficient training that they would practice their swordsmanship as opposed to training in it.

Of course this discussion comes at a time when I want to do more with my kukris and knives, but the only places to learn around here are McDojos for belt collectors and the like, and most don't deal in armed combat at all. To make it even better, I spend almost the entire year here, so no time to learn when I'm not around. To add to that, once I'm out of here in a few years I'll be moving around a lot, and there's no telling where. And on top of all that, the closest I have to an instructor lives 2,000 miles away. And can't discount that there are few teachers out there for the kukri, which is my preferred bladed weapon. And as if all that wasn't enough, it seems the only way to get a training kukri is to make it yourself or find someone who can make a wooden one for you.

 

[cul4u01]

Ask Bawanna to attempt to make you a wooden khukuri, he just might be able.

Also, auntie may have an old wooden model from an old customer custom request, and may be willing to pass it on to you for free, or a fair price.

 

[J W Bensinger]

Yeah, looking back Eskrima wasn't a good example. Roman legions would have been a better example of what I was thinking, where four months of training was sufficient for a legionary to go to his legion, and those four months were not spent entirely on hand to hand combat. Among them were marching, swimming where possible, formations, pilum throwing, and swordsmanship. And all this was considered sufficient for training a foot soldier of one of the most effective armed forces ever. Granted they weren't thrown straight into combat out of training and they would practice every single day, but four months was considered sufficient training that they would practice their swordsmanship as opposed to training in it.

Of course this discussion comes at a time when I want to do more with my kukris and knives, but the only places to learn around here are McDojos for belt collectors and the like, and most don't deal in armed combat at all. To make it even better, I spend almost the entire year here, so no time to learn when I'm not around. To add to that, once I'm out of here in a few years I'll be moving around a lot, and there's no telling where. And on top of all that, the closest I have to an instructor lives 2,000 miles away. And can't discount that there are few teachers out there for the kukri, which is my preferred bladed weapon. And as if all that wasn't enough, it seems the only way to get a training kukri is to make it yourself or find someone who can make a wooden one for you.

Make one from polyethylene cutting board. No splinters, slides a little like steel in partner drills, easy to work-just don't leave any sharp profile contours, as they tend to produce break points.

 

[Shavru]

JW, having watched you perform sinawali with new blades as you test them for balance, I would say you are definately someone who knows. So, I am confused, and would like to clear up something I am misunderstanding. I was told that in Silat they have jurus which I was told are series of prearranged movements practiced as a single set, whose main function is to pass down all of a style's techniques and combat applications in an organised manner. To me that sure sounds like a Kata. And I was also told that kekuda or the Horse stance which is so prevelant in many Chinese martial arts is trained in Silat at the very beginning until the student can hold it a predetermined length of time easily, That is a lot like a form in any martial art. I have to admit that it is entirely possible I am confusing things as I will readily admit that I know very little about Silat at all. Help clear up my confusion please?

Scara, Oh man, I feel bad for you stuck with that sort of lack of way to train. I also remember you mentioned a training partner that is willing but you can't seem to match schedules with. Very tough. As for a wooden practice blade. We had a thread that talked about that a while back. A good suggestion during that discussion was to cutout a khuk from one of those poly cutting boards and use duct tape to round up the grip. Could also pad up the cuttting edge a bit...or not depending on how you feel about the sparring partner

 

[J W Bensinger]

Shav- the way I was taught, there were jurus (hand sets) and longkos (which I am sire I am brutalizing the spelling of) which are stepping forms, to which there was some hand movement but nothing preordained or required. The only other solo work other than stances and striking/kicking was square stepping, which is pretty much spontaneous responses to imagined attacks on a 2' or so square (depending on how big you are, I guess), the four corners of which were where your feet would be placed. None of that really fits my definition of "form" or kata in the Japanese/Korean sense. A lot of silat styles have jurus which really are kata, but the way Bruce taught, and the way his teacher taught him there were not. This may be because neither man thought they were needed.
Wish I could ask, but Bruce died in '06 while I was in the sandbox and his teacher died as well-and I'm not sure they parted on the best of terms.

 

[Scara]

Scara, Oh man, I feel bad for you stuck with that sort of lack of way to train. I also remember you mentioned a training partner that is willing but you can't seem to match schedules with. Very tough. As for a wooden practice blade. We had a thread that talked about that a while back. A good suggestion during that discussion was to cutout a khuk from one of those poly cutting boards and use duct tape to round up the grip. Could also pad up the cuttting edge a bit...or not depending on how you feel about the sparring partner

When JW brought up the idea I wondered how to put a handle on it. And I do like my potential sparring partner, so padding is probably a good idea. And I already have a pair of rubber Applegate-Fairbairn knives that I'll use. There's another friend who has martial art experience, but his schedule can be even more difficult and I'm not sure he would make a good sparring partner.

And unfortunately my area has a very careless attitude when it comes to defense. People don't lock their doors, they go running alone in unlit areas after dark, and they have no sense of skepticism or caution around others. Everyone has the attitude of "that doesn't happen here". They have no idea that the area and state have one of the highest rates of larceny in the country, and the reported rape rate is higher than Chicago's. Beyond that, there's also a strong culture of "we have to be constantly busy and doing good things" so lots of kids get sent to McDojos as a result. And then a lot of the places that do teach swordsmanship are actually teaching Olympic Fencing, which is pretty far away from what I'm looking for. And I'm looking around and I can't find much. There's supposedly a Silat group that meets in my city, but their website hasn't updated in four years, and it was never much, and you have to call to find out training times. There's another Silat group that meets more than an hour's drive from here, and I don't have a car, and I know nothing about them. The rest is all pretty much the same story, so I won't bore you with further details. And then there are the people I see on campus doing some kind of swordplay, but they obviously don't know what they're doing. Even with next to no experience I can see that they're aiming for each other's weapons and not each other, and leaving massive openings, so I can rule them out as a source of training/knowledge.

 

[cul4u01]

In fact everything I can find about the topic implies it is so similar to others that even the comment many of the instructors that started teaching non-Phillipean were reprimanded by their elders for "publicly teaching a part of their culture that had been preserved through secrecy" which sounds really familiar to anyone that has learned any martial art. I think almost every Chinese or Japanese martial art followed the same pattern of tradition and culture and "exposure" to the non-whatevers.

I have heard rumors, but nothing "in fact", that those who teach individuals outside of their "culture", are usually not overly appreciated from their original schools elders. Point in fact, two of my master's classmates have opened schools to teach "publicly", and my master and many of his other classmates have distanced themselves from these two other teachers. Reason being, is that our honorable Grandmaster who passed away, made his students make an honor promise to not teach "westerners, or non-Asians" the art. More out of superstition than anything else, my master and his classmates do not want any "bad luck" coming their way, by associating with the two classmates who "broke their word".

Also, the belief, is that Asians in general are smaller in stature than the peoples of the West, European, Nordic, African, etc..., and that the martial art skills, help to equalize the inequality between size, strength, and speed in assailants from a non-Asian country of origin. By teaching others their arts, Asians lose this equalizing aspect when it comes to a confrontation. Other teachers believe that by allowing non-Asians to learn the art, they will learn to respect the Asian culture more, and use the martial art learned as a bridge between cultures. Which belief is the right one? Who knows? I think it just comes down to individual belief.

That being said, It may be that teachers teach the arts quickly, in the hope, that while they make money, they do not really give the essentials to a non-Asian to actually truly learn the "essence" of the art. I don't know, maybe it's true, maybe not. Of course, I have no fact to prove or disprove this line of thought.

I myself has made the honor pledge to my master, and the only one I plan to pass the knowledge onto is my daughter, who even now, is beginning training, and she is only four. I was six when I started, and I will also be asking her to make an honor pledge to me, before I begin to teach her the secrets of the martial art itself, as well as the healing aspects, such as, acupuncture, chiropratic, healing liniments with herbs, and soups.

I can easily teach an individual how to defend him/herself against armed/unarmed, single/multiple assailants, but they would not have to go through the full training at all. In fact, I have taught several friends in law enforcement certain techniques which are extremely effective, in as short a time as 4 - 6 months. Do they actually learn the essence of the art? Not really, but then, that isn't what they want. They just want to learn a few techniques for knowledge and perhaps backup, if the need should ever arise.