Katana balance and durability

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Jan 28, 2005
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Just started looking at getting a katana so I'm trying to read as much as I can and get up to speed on the learning curve. I want to understand best what you get/don't get as far as durability and balance with katana's. If I get one I don't want something that will break first and foremost. Second I would like something with decent balance. Now not having all the money in the world to throw at this hobby, what are some high (over $500-800), medium (300-500) and low ($100 - 300) priced options that meet these criteria.

Thanks,
Hawk
 
I'd check out Hanwei's lineup first for your budget restrictions. Practical plus and raptor, or you can spend a bit more and get one of my favorites, the Tiger Elite. Others will suggest Bugei, Musashi, and a few others. Kris Cutlery isn't terrible either.
 
Dynasty forge has multiple price points, I've had a 1060 steel katana for years and its held up quite well
 
I think Balance is a personal thing Try if possible before you buy. I have a couple I bought that just don't feel right and others that feel perfect.
 
You can get a nice Hanwei for around $1K or less.
 
I'd really like to stick to the oh so common $300 price point on my first one. I'm not sure this would be something I'd do all that often (but never know). I want something decent blade wise that I can update the other parts over time as necessary.

I'm a big guy at 6'4" and 225 lbs. I'm pretty fit so not sure if I'll notice a big difference in a 3lb vs 2lb 4oz blade of the same length. At the moment I'm looking at all makers of production katanas and making a spreadsheet (love spreadsheets) of all the details of each to see what's what. And reading reviews as much as possible. I am leaning towards an Hanwei XL possibly or similar wide width blade. The Cheness Cutlery Yamacami looks interesting as well but on the heavier end of things but I prefer the through hardened blade over the differential.
 
I'd really like to stick to the oh so common $300 price point on my first one.

For that price....you don't get a lot of value.

Balance will be secondary to basic aesthetics and visuals.

Decent....bladewise....is a subjective term...as is "battle ready".

Basic "decent" swords for me are in the $500-$600 region....wholesale price.

Maybe go to a store in your area and try out different models, or go to a knife show that may have some stuff you can try out. My first "good " sword was a Shinto katana from CAS Iberia....purchased in 1999. I used it as an iaito after dulling the blade....balance gave me "tennis elbow"....balance and weight are important...doesn't matter how fit you are or how big you are....bad weighted/balanced sword will wear you out.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I don't know about the balance, but cheness 9260 katanas are nearly unbreakable.
 
I have a Musashi 1060 DH sword and I love it. It is a great lite to medium cutter and I cut banana trees and bottles all the time.

Here is a few vids...

[video=youtube;anq0H5Q3JQ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anq0H5Q3JQ8&feature=share&list=UU9Y4nBtvLZLWR7axdpl4gpg[/video]

[video=youtube;TOUq2sMH_0M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOUq2sMH_0M&list=UU9Y4nBtvLZLWR7axdpl4gpg&feature=share&index=1[/video]

It cost me $80.00 at True Swords. If you have never cut before, go with something like this and grow into something better. I am getting a Raptor Katana and waki in a few weeks.

Ray
CR
 
Thanks for your reply and posting of videos Ray. I really don't plan on cutting hard targets, medium at best.

Can I ask the downside Musashi functionality wise? My biggest concern is I don't want anything breaking for safety reasons. Looks aren't a big deal, and I make knives so I'm fairly handy when it comes to fixing/upgrading things.
 
Thanks for your reply and posting of videos Ray. I really don't plan on cutting hard targets, medium at best.

Can I ask the downside Musashi functionality wise? My biggest concern is I don't want anything breaking for safety reasons. Looks aren't a big deal, and I make knives so I'm fairly handy when it comes to fixing/upgrading things.

I can't complain and it is the same line that the Bamboo Warrior is from. You can you tube the bamboo warrior and TONS of great reviews and people love the 1060 DH series.

I ordered mine from True Swords and they are great. Any problems and they will take care of it right away.

Ray
CR
 
Ray,
I've seen great reviews on these, but I also see lots of people saying the are not much more than "light target" or "show" swords. Your video clearly shows it being used against medium to heavy targets. Where does this theory of being a "light" or "show" sword come from? I know these are about a 55 HRC blade, which should be durable compared to a much harder blade. I'd rather have an edge roll than chip.
Just trying to clear up some of the myths out there that you need a $500 sword or you are throwing your money away for medium targets (hard targets being hard wood targets).

Thanks,
Hawk
 
I don't know that many people will say that you NEED a $500 sword. What you NEED is something that will suit your purposes. For most people buying swords, they're just gonna cut the occasional mat or plastic bottle, cardboard, etc, wave it around in the air when friends are over or they've watched a zombie movie, and then back on the wall it goes. And for those purposes, no, a nice cheap sword will do just fine.

But then again, you get what you pay for. That's as true here as it is anywhere else. If you haven't tried a really top-notch sword, you'll likely have a tougher time understanding the difference in performance and quality, and you'll be sure that you can get a sword for 200 dollars that's every bit as good as a 500 or 1000+ dollar sword. And that's just not true.

As for hardness, there's a lot that goes into it. A good sword edge will have an edge closer to 60, but the spine hardness on a simple carbon steel like a 10-series will be much lower. You'll get high toughness, and still have good edge retention, and an edge that won't bend or break upon contact with a target (say, an analogue of an arm). It won't dull quickly either. It won't take a set when you hit what you describe as a hard target, or break. It will have superb balance and geometry. A lot of those cheap blades have terrible cutting geometry, as well as a heat treat that's mediocre at best. They're poorly balanced, and haven't been made by someone with an understanding of sword mechanics. They've instead been churned out by sweatshop labor in a Chinese factory with negligible quality control. If you're in it for anything aside from backyard cutting, and you've got some experience with swords, you may change your tune about what's necessary. And I sure wouldn't want to trust my life to a cheap sword, or call it "battle-ready." But to each his own. And for what it's worth, there were no hard targets in those videos. A banana tree isn't actually even wood. It's just densely packed leaves, and it's quite easy to cut in comparison even to some soft woods.

At the end of the day, we need a sword that will fit whatever purpose we want to put it to. And there's a pretty wide quality difference as you change budget levels that, in my experience, is evident even to the untrained practitioner with actual experience with swords across those price points.
 
Not having a background in swords, this is all great information. I do have quite a bit of background in knives though. There was just a discussion in the "General" forum about is a $50 knife as good as $200 knife (or something like that). I understand about materials, quality, fit/finish, etc. I also understand that a $60 CS Recon1 is just as tough if not tougher than some $200 + blades. Again, it comes down to materials. Will I be happy with G10 vs Titanium scales? Is AUS8 good enough or do I need S90V? Do I care that there is a slight gap in the backspacer and scale? Do I care it has a junky/cheap black coating on the blade vs a high polish finish?

And maybe swords are one of those things where more money does mean better. Also, I know this won't be something I use regularly. I've never had a sword and wanted to give one a try to see if I find it interesting in a sporting sense. I don't hunt much, but I still love to shoot bow kind of thing.
 
Okay, so first, just as with knives, it comes down to what you need it to do. How much you need to spend really depends on what you're trying to get out of it. With knives, I tend to think cost comes down to fit and finish and features that are relatively insignificant when it comes to the end goal--cutting stuff.

However, as the knives get bigger, things get more interesting. The demands placed upon a sword are substantially different than the demands placed on a knife. You don't see many pictures of a 3" blade breaking in half, even with cheap gas station specials. The amount of force required for such is quite different, and harmonics have a negligible effect on a shorter blade. Similarly, a short blade is substantially more forgiving of any flaws in the grinding. With a longer blade (say, over a foot OAL), you're pretty much guaranteed to end up with at least a little warp post heat treat, unless it's been precision ground, say, via CNC or something. So, the stresses you face are quite different, which is why swords need to have a lot more attention paid to things like cross-section, geometry, edge geometry, shearing, etc. The stresses that a sword faces are not at all the same kind of stresses faced by a small knife, and we're talking macro scale here, not anything tiny.

That's why you can have videos of a guy smacking a cheap Chinese sword on a table and have the end break off and stab into him. Because of the length, a force that would barely be noticed by a small knife can be catastrophic in a sword. The physics are rather more interesting with longer blades. For instance, take a yard stick and flex it. You'll notice you can probably bend or break it very easily if you grasp at the end. In contrast, try using the same amount of force, but grasp only a few inches apart. The difference should be pretty evident.

Too, working swords often have more expected of them than EDC knives. They need to be able to withstand severe and repeated impacts (such as a sword into armor, or bodies, etc--duplicated by hard bamboo wrapped in tatami), and thus need to be flexible enough to take the shock and return to true. They need to be able to withstand impacts on the point. They need to stay razor sharp through hundreds of cuts and impacts on a wide variety of substances as well. If your sword were to dull during combat, for instance, that could cost you your life. Not that combat is even a remote likelihood for a sword these days, but still, the point holds true. I suppose, if I were to make an analogy, it would be regarding throwing knives. Those face sharp impacts and much more rotational force than your average knife, and if you throw a knife designed for cutting on a regular basis, you can be assured that it will eventually break. Swords must face those same impacts, and still be able to cut. The heat treat requires much more nuance (or you have to use a more capable steel, where with a knife, steel is really just a novelty). For instance, you will be hard pressed to find a 440 steel sword that won't break under use. Sword steels must be very tough, and yet still retain a balance so that the edge will remain functional. You talk of edge-rolling or chipping as though they're just a possibility. If the sword isn't done just right, that kind of damage is extremely likely upon impact on a harder target, or even an easier target that you've struck at the wrong angle.

And then, the geometry and balance is significantly more important for a sword than for a short knife. Consider katana. Your average cheap katana is just slightly bent along a curve. It takes the rough form, enough to fool the untrained eye, but the angles aren't quite right. A sword designed for cuts will take into account the way your arms and body move to keep the blade at precisely the right angle to maximize force and cutting ability through the entire length of the blade and the cut. That's why, if you look at pictures of a really well-done sword (such as Dan Keffeler's Super Assassin wakizashi, for instance, or a genuine nihonto), you'll see the hilt of the sword is actually often at an angle to the blade. And yet, in a cheap blade, you won't see the same attention to design, and consequently, an experienced cutter will notice a distinct and significant difference in cutting ability.

The list goes on. Swords are not just large knives, and even if they were, the massive size differential would still mean that something that wouldn't impact performance on a knife can result in a broken blade for a sword.
 
Great reply. I get that knives and swords are different tools for different jobs, and you gave a great explanation of the differences. Very helpful information for someone just learning the ins/outs of swords.
 
Good stuff Crimson Falcon!

I have been training in JSA since 1999 under a Japanese Sensei until he passed away in 2012, and now train under his highest ranking student on the West Coast.

Have had the opportunity to examine hundreds if not a thousand + Chitana and kin.

There are many possible areas for catastrophic blade damage....heat treating and forging of the blade, choice of wood for the tsuka core, how the wrap is done and with what, the composition of the habaki and even the mekugi choice.

I ALWAYS remove the mekugi on swords and replace them with new mekugi made from Japanese knitting needles of bamboo. Usually a size 8 or 10, depending.

I recommend CAS Hanwei/Iberia products because I know the principals involved and the QC is very stringent...and even so, occasionally a lemon gets out.

Raymond, no insult intended, it is always cool to work on cutting and discuss it, but you don't have a lot of training afaict....that makes a difference...a big difference.

Have handled many Cheness swords and am not a fan of the copper furniture, the handle shape/wrapping or the habaki. The balance was really off for me, worse than any CAS product I have trained with.

Your mileage may vary, it is as important to work with a good seller of the swords as well as a good manufacturer.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thanks, STeven. I always appreciate your opinions. I learn a lot from your expertise, as my knowledge about nihonto is fairly negligible, and I'm pretty sure you've forgotten more about cutting than I'll ever know.

My experience is much more limited, but I've also had nothing but good luck with Hanwei.
 
Thanks, STeven. I always appreciate your opinions. I learn a lot from your expertise, as my knowledge about nihonto is fairly negligible, and I'm pretty sure you've forgotten more about cutting than I'll ever know.

My experience is much more limited, but I've also had nothing but good luck with Hanwei.

Man....don't even get me started about expertise.......

This goes for knives, swords...or paper clips.....NONE of us is an expert...we are all students...some are serious and some less serious.....if you spend your entire life studying one aspect of bladeware....and know more than anyone else....you are still just scratching the surface.

What we do have that our electronically challenged forebears did not is a MASSIVE database of collective knowledge....Rich Stein's website, BFC, Nihonto message boards, Fred Lohman's website....reference and in depth discussion going back as far as the internets started...THAT collective is invaluable.

The work that you have done creating interesting and usable blades is a whole different enchilada than what I do.

It's easy for me to critique a blade that I didn't spend a hundred hours creating, and at some point I hope to remedy that by at least making a nice tanto sized piece myself.

I thank you for the props, truly, but we need to keep it all in perspective. There is always room for more knowledge, and there is NO room for ignorance or bad information.

The days of some squinty eyed dood speaking in a gravely voice about katana cutting a machine gun barrel in half has got to go the way of the dodo bird.;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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