Katana blade shapes/curvature

8

8thsinner

Joined
Sep 13, 2001
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I am in the look out for a new katana of better quality then my 8 yr old martos and could do with a few links and info.

To give you an idea of what I am looking........
I have been looking around at mainly WKC katanas, which are offering 13 layer folded, clay tempered, double pin, bohi, silk ito's, real ray skin and horn tipped saya etc......
Generally speaking a real good modern offering for around 1000 euros.
Which keeps fairly close to traditional methods and such.

The only thing I don't like about them is the general blade shape which seems to be on most of their blades. too curvy on the last third of the blade.....IMO
The model which most interested me was the dragon heart I think it was.......In reference to offerings....


I much prefer the edo period style curves and it is what I am used to working and cutting with, I study iaido btw, and would prefer 11 inch tsuba's or ten and three quarter's if on offer, with a 27 and a half or 28 inch blade length.
I would like to stick to basic entry level folded blades, around a thousand euros if possible. And if possible using european companies as I have a good deal of trouble getting money to the USA.

Can any one offer links to either.
Good entry level folded blades

Any maker who offers semi custom work with bog standard fittings etc (I do not mind crappy furniture as I can upgrade that in the future, And would anyway probably)

Info regarding technical names for curvature shapes

links to efficeny of curvatures to help me decide on the best cutter, Even if I do have to relearn my drawing style again......

Other relevant info you think might help me decide on something definate.



PS, I work on my tameshigiri weekly (4-10 matts a week) during summers and need a good efficient cutter so I can better improve my techniques. I don't mind a fast blade.

I hope a few of you can help out, as I feel like I am back to square one with shopping around.
 
hi 8th...the curvature of the blade is called "sori".

sorry i can't help you regarding European makers...but does the sword have to be folded steel? a custom monosteel may be cheaper and certainly will perform well for cutting. i also tend to stay away from bohi if you do a lot of tamashigiri...i mainly use the ones with bohi for iai...it helps guide your form when cutting, plus i love the whisper it makes when swinging it.

just my opinion of course...i've seen a European bare blade but i can't remember the fellow's name. i hope someone who knows will chime in for you.

good luck.
 
I will try to be a little more specific in describing what I want.
Sori-which I did know name of)lol, I prefer based on blades from the mid muromachi period, and or early to mid edo period.

As for folded, well yes kind of because I want to try and get a more classic style of steel made in the modern times. I will never afford a full custom shinken, And the japanese probably wouldn't give it to me anyway....
I don't really like laminated steel swords for what ever reason.

I mean if I can't find a decent folded blade at a reasonable price, I would probably try to order from maybe swordstore.com or something, perhaps imperial forge or somewhere like it. But I have alloted a price and a time estimated is saving and purchasing of the sword, so I really don't want to have to wait longer by having to save more.

I could always go with the lesser simply forged and clay tempered blades but I would probably always think I sold myself too short if you know what I mean.

Bohi, oh hell yeah I still want it for tameshigiri based on these facts.
With my Spanish marto blade I have done the following......
Hand made tsuba, custom wrapped tsukamaki old combat style, reprofiled by hand the edge to give appearance of more niku in addition by shortening the width of blade.
EG shorten only 1/4 of width, then polish it in a convex pattern.

I would like to at some point clean up the bohi to get that sound cause I love it but none the less.

To carry on......This blade I have cut...........( remember it's 440 steel.)
3" elderberry branches
2 1/2 birches and hollies
Hundreds of A4 sheets.
ANd finally stacks of mats, Neverwent higher than a triple though, there too bloody expensive.lol.

On this basis I consider my technique to be pretty good, Though bohi blades are obviously slightly weaker I will not be doing any bad twisting and certainly very little wobble on the follow through, Put it this way I can cut and stop usually just a few inches past my ettiqute stoping position.
I expect a carbon blade would be able to cope with that limit of skill. If theres something I am not aware of concerning properly tempered blades being more likely to break please let me know.
 
My, cutting with a Marto (did it too, suprising how well it holds up - seems to be heat-treated to some extent - handle is crap though - hence the loads of epoxy ;)). However... I'd stop while you're ahead, stainless steel, unless heat-treated in a very specific manner, doesn't handle stresses in sword sizes very well.... especially repetitively.

First: I'd consider thinking about what exactly you want out of your katana.... blade shape, for training (formal), etc...

Forged, non-folded blades are hardly "lesser" necessarily. I'd pit a Howard Clark L6 against a Bugei folded any day of the week... it's the expertise and hard work of the swordsmith and the polisher that really make the difference. "Sold yourself short" - ha. You need to learn more about swordsmithing it seems. There's a lot of apparent myths you believe that should be at least abolished to some extent before you should consider buying a higher-end blade....
"Put it this way I can cut and stop usually just a few inches past my ettiqute stoping position."
I have no idea what you mean. I presume you think that being able to somewhat control the blade is skill? It's really just not going berserk with a big sharp thing in your hand...... looks like you've done good so far - just remember the basic safety rules.
A) Noone within 20 feet of you.
B) Spectators/participants are shielded by something.
C) Check your katana for signs of material fatigue, cracked handle, etc....
D) Exert utmost control over your actions, and avoid "fancy" moves that can go horribly wrong.

Sorry if it sounds condescending... but I'd rather you didn't hurt yourself or others in this hobby.

Finally, some other options:
Swordstore.com (should be able to get a folded for the same price as a custom) - ask Rick Polland about it.
www.bugei.com
http://j-armory.com/ - check Furuyama and the J-Armory lines. I suppose you can look at Last Legend too, but don't trust the hype.
http://www.oniforge.com/ - some VERY nice swords in the 800-1000+ USD region.
Consider some of the Paul Chen folded line - they're really quite nice now, gone through several improvements. The tsuka do tend to be a bit bulky though.... just make sure you find a good, inexpensive retailer with excellent quality control and service (and warranty).
 
I have and skill am considering a dragon fly or the crane from them but thanks for that.
 
8th
you might consider either a "Criswell " A-2 katana for simple bare bones cutting / practise blade , or a Michael Rader Blade that is done alot more traditional. i don't know what kind of delivery times your looking at but id say check out "Rader" and see what he's got .i know of only 1 guy in germany that might do ya a katana . Good luck
 
Thanks matt, I will check out Michaels work.

I would easily take an L6 too over a bugei if I had a couple of thousand dollars lying around wasting. And no I do not actually favour many of the myths which you speak of, I have spent quite a while talking to one of our better sensei's who has tested hundreds of blades in and do remember a fair bit of his mistakes and method testings (as in how many he broke and by doing what to them wether old or new blades). I know that a folded blade isn't necessarily a better option but it is slightly more traditional which is what I am aiming for. A practical pro is as good as I would ever really need, but theres just something more alluring to traditional methods.
Hell if I just wanted to chop shit up I would opt for an HI sword.

WHat I mean by etiquette position is in my school we are for example on a horizontal drawing cut, supposed to stop with the kissaki still pointing towards the opponent within reason. I can't quite do that yet. at least not in a sucessful cut.
I can cut a mat quite cleanly in my diagonal cuts, where were supposed to stop the blade motion in relatively the same way.
I mean I am not using force and a hell of a dangerous follow through.

As for my space, when I train, I am surrounded by 12 foot wall, 8 foot fence, conservatory double doors to house and another fence, 20 feet, I couldn't afford a place here with that much garden space, I have enough to do all my kata without interference from objects and what not. As far as safety goes in training, I am.


Oh and what do you mean by do not trust the hype, I am sort of searching through reviews of LL swords and they do seem favoured by ppl, Have you heard or experienced otherwise.

I check the blade fairly often for wear, But quite possibly not enough, It tends to need sharpening every fourty mats or so, so it gets cleaned up and given the once over then.
And the handle it came with, I would not even have considered using it for tameshigiri. It took me three attempts to carve just the tsuba and about a week to get the wrap right and tight enough.

ANyway thanks for the other links.....Damn another few days worth of reading
lol
 
Etiquette position: ah, I think I understand what you mean, though not the particular usage of "etiquette". There is a similar principle in Shinkage ryu and Suio ryu - the idea is to constantly threaten the opponent (unarmored) and leave few openings.

P.S. It's tsuka, not tsuba....

May I ask.... what your sensei recommends - particularly for your style?

I think you'd like the newer generations of Bugei Dragonfly - they're really nice. Never handled the Crane though. For 1000 Euros.... probably next to no customs in that range.... although this might be worth looking at: http://www.seelenschmiede.de/
E-mail for some nice photos of his work...
 
He recommended that I get a family blade from somewhere and to make sure I was certain of what I was getting, but since I don't really wanna tameshigiri with an old sword I am having to look around myself.

I have shown him my marto obviously and he says that for me it's a fairly good shape and style, ie
Handle was about the right size for him, but to extend mine half an inch longer taking it to 11inch.......
Extend my blade an inch as I have much better posture now compared to when I started.
We never actually talked much about specifics of the shape and what not he tried to be impartial and say just gets whats comfortable to use and to work closely to what I am used to. I have spent 8 yrs with my martos like.....
And comfortable means bohi, gentle even curvature and similarsized handle.

He did say that if I got a traditional set up on the menuki that I would find it difficult and tricky to get a comfortable grip again. But that it would be worth it cause it's better.

Mind you my actual sensei as opposed to the visiting guy, says basically to wait until I need it in training to get one as he is only just sorting out what he wants in one, He's going for a family blade too when he finds one suitable I think. He doesn't have a problem with me using and he has saw my tameshigiri,but the think that I will be wasting my money cause I would need a new one later anyway.

I disagree with that on the basis that even if I do need to get a new one in a few years then It's another nice thing for the wall and for memories sake. Blade collection is a part of me as it is not in him. Go figure.

Which is why I am in forums asking questions about lower end practical blades.

Ettiquette was my term only, just trying to explain the way my school does it. And yes it's for the same principle.

Tsuka,tsuba I always get them mixed up, same for fuchi and kashira....I will probably get them in my head one day.
 
Just a few things:

The curve emphasis towards the tip is "sakizori," curvature focused on the center is "torii-sori," and curvature that is maximal near the tsuba is "koshizori."

Just for future reference, folding is a form of laminating. It's only that you're laminating layers of the same steel together, rather than a core of one steel welded to a jacket of another. It can be very pretty, though you'll have to be aware that many swords made of folded steel for visual effect (every single production piece) have low layer counts and gaudy etches that are much further out of line from the traditional aesthetic than a simple monosteel sword.

As for cutting efficiency... More or less every curvature variation in the katana has its staunch proponents.

If you're interested in tradition, I think that a better place to start than the nature of the steel is the quality of the geometry. Steel is good nowadays. Plain and simple. If your desire is for a nice sword that pays homage to tradition rather than exploiting it, pay more attention to proper shape than folded steel. A nicely defined yokote and mitsukado if your piece is shinogi zukuri. A sugata and kissaki that shows a proper understanding of the historical form the blade is meant to reproduce. A clean, crisp shinogi-ji. Symmetry where there should be symmetry. Planes and bevels that don't show waves and ripples. Niku appropriate for your targets.

It's my opinion that tradition is best honored by seeking the qualities that your predecessors sought, rather than mindlessly fawning over the techniques that ancient smiths used to achieve them. Folding homogenizes "dirty" steel. No longer an issue. Smiths don't need a line of apprentices any more, power hammers can do the same thing more consistently.

Replication of traditional techniques means nothing if you can't at least replicate traditional results. Go for something that A) fits the requirements of your school, B) fits YOUR requirements as a swordsman, and C) is within your means.

Everything else is, in my opinion, irrelevant.
 
Thats a very sound piece of advice and it has really made me think of what I want in my ideal blade, and as I have been looking through literally dozens of sites and learnt a little more about what goes into a sword, I have come to a simple realisation about my own desires and what a sword represents to me......
It is simply put me, An epic poem of my life what makes me tick and what I believe in....It might sound a little silly but I was trying to work out my dream sword design and then asked myself why I wanted what I did.
You know the idea that your house tells everything about you, well I think thats what a sword is, and perhaps more importantly what a traditional blade was made to represent. Perhaps thats a little distorted in what I am trying to say but I know what I mean and I hope some of you do too.

In essence I want a mix of modern usage of technology but something perhaps a little more spiritual in a traditional sense. Something which represents me.
But unfortunatly that is going to have to wait.
For now I think Your point of within my means is a little more realistic.

Of course the most traditional reason for having a sword was probably defence relevent to combat styles at the time. Defence of your family and your rights to survive. In this day and age that isn't so much an issue but something practical enough to protect your family in extreme circumstances (in some areas may be relevant).

I know theres a lot more to it, But I believe I have found my path along finding that.
 
Of course the most traditional reason for having a sword was probably defence relevent to combat styles at the time. Defence of your family and your rights to survive. In this day and age that isn't so much an issue but something practical enough to protect your family in extreme circumstances (in some areas may be relevant).
Click to expand...
Well... of course if you're a noble or relatively rich, yes.... and it can be a status symbol, much like jewelry for men, or clothes.... it can be for ceremonial and even religious uses. Or a "cool" display above your US$6,000 Plasma flatscreen TV. ;).

I think I know what you're aiming for, and honestly, you're probably looking at getting a nihonto for tradition and for "spirituality". There are several European and American smiths that do incredible work... but not too many work in folded steel any more.... and am not sure how spiritual their work would be considered...
 
Yes I think your right but not for a few years yet.

Right now I want something more practical but still nice and at least with roots in tradition and having done a little research I think I am set on the yashima, I am hardly ever going to cut harder targets, it's similar to what I have worked with and cut with, and I have only ever found bad reviews with the old line.
I am not sure how new the new line is but Ithink it will work out fine.

Mind You until I have the money ready I am going to continue looking around.

Thanks for all the help.
 
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