keeping the billet square

rhrocker

rhrocker

Joined
Jan 18, 2004
Messages
1,135
Don, or Kevin, or anyone: I seem to have a bit of a problem in keeping my bilets nice and square, or rectangle. I sometimes end up with a parallelogram, and have a heck of a time getting it back square. Is the answer just having the right dies on my press? I'm currently trying to draw out some steel for bothh twisting, and for edging, and the sizes are small, about 3/8's x 3/8's, maybe a little larger. The "edging" piece will be fairly long (for me), close to 30". The 4 damascus bars in the center will be squared, then twisted, then re-squared, so that they'll fit nicely next to each other.
Is this purely an experience thing, eyeballing, keeping things square while using either a air hammer, or a mechanical (LG) hammer?
How do you square up something, that's gotten out of hand? I find that turning it up on the corner that's proud, seems to simply start flattening that corner.
I need one of you guys to come live with me for a year. :confused:
 
Robert, practice,practice,practice. move small amounts of steel with every squeeze or hammer blow, rotate the billet constantly, and when it starts to go south, straighten it up before it get out of hand. And always remember to PRAY. Just remember that steel moves one way or the other away from the pressure, so counter movement with the opposite side pressure.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help

Bill
 
Have you checked the press to see that everything is square and true ?
 
This happens a lot even if your dies are good and true, and will happen continually if your dies are not. I may really need a diagram to show how I cope with it but I will try with words.

What you said about hitting the proud corner is the route I take. Go ahead and let it flaten that corner out. You should end up with a distorted hexagonal. Now simply run your next series of blows down the ridge on the top of that hexagonal and you will have it back square.

Be aware that you will never put more stress on your welds as you will with diagonal shearing action. If your welds are not really good, this will let you know. But look on the bright side, if you find out now that they are not so good, you may be able to fix them.

As has been mentioned, take things in bites. For two reasons, 1. It is easier to keep it straight if you only mess up one inch at a time, 2. There is less stress on the layers by taking it in bites.
 
Ok guys, this is what I needed, some input from the pros. Bill, you're right about the practice! I have quite a bit of time with larger billets, but these small guys, well, different set of rules, for me anyway. Mete, I went back to the shop and checked, and everything seems square, although I was hoping it wouldn't be. Kevin, you're to blame for all of this anyway. It's you're sword tutorial that's gotten me obsessed with doing a composite with a forge-welded edge. There's one picture of you forging a tiny little square billet, that must be 6 feet long, I think you said you had a hole in the wall for the steel to go through it was so long. I hold you totally responsible :D
Appreciate it, will go work on it some more this evening.

One more thing I've been thinking about, Kevin. Can a "good" weld still shear if it's stressed to much, or is it only a poor weld that will shear?
 
I find this happens when I work off center of press then I have to off center till it corrects itself stay in or near center and as has been mentioned is press flexing check if its flexing some if so stay hotter or go back to reheat sooner .don't try taking as large of bits and don't mash as deep even though the press will do it the best reason for the press is its so controllable .standing on corners will help but with hot steel and advance at 1/2" bits at a time it should see after a while what you doing to make it get out of shape now that you know why it will .
fun ant it
 
Hi Robert,
It will be hard to add to what's already been said, but I'll try.
Almost all the damascus work I do involves forging large billets down square, cutting and restacking and I use a 100# LG for 98% of my work. I have found it just as difficult to keep square with a air hammer. If you forge a billet very hard on the top, the sides will bulge out kind of rounded, then when you turn it up on the side you can hold the sides square with the dies and forge it down, this works good for me. I also turn billets up on corner to resquare, you have to hit it hard to shift the billet back square. Man all this is hard to put into words.Mostly it just takes practice :D which is realy the fun part, I just enjoy forging with a power hammer. :)

Hope I've helped. Don sunfishforge.com
 
Ron and Don, yep, that all helped. I think I'm armed now with enough info to help me work through this thing. I'm having a big time with it all, whether or not it comes out as well as I'd like or not. I've always enjoyed learning curves, but with the help that you guys have given me, maybe I'll turn it into a "learning arc" instead of "learning curve" :o)
Many thanks,
RH
 
rhrocker said:
... Kevin, you're to blame for all of this anyway. It's you're sword tutorial that's gotten me obsessed with doing a composite with a forge-welded edge. There's one picture of you forging a tiny little square billet, that must be 6 feet long, I think you said you had a hole in the wall for the steel to go through it was so long. I hold you totally responsible :D
Appreciate it, will go work on it some more this evening.

One more thing I've been thinking about, Kevin. Can a "good" weld still shear if it's stressed to much, or is it only a poor weld that will shear?
Click to expand...

If you start welding tall narrow stacks, like the one involving the edge wrap you mentioned, it is ABSOLUTELY critical to keep the bars square or you will blow all the welds apart when you forge on the flat. Then you will have an angled split in your peace that will be impossible to shut. If you find a multibar, like the one in my sword thread, starting to cup, it is best to grind it back flat, if you can catch it that soon.

Yes, even good welds can separate if abused enough. Heck even mono steel will come apart if you push it too far ;) . But sometimes a little abuse to find the weaker ones isn't all that bad.
 
Kevin said "Yes, even good welds can separate if abused enough. Heck even mono steel will come apart if you push it too far . But sometimes a little abuse to find the weaker ones isn't all that bad."

Ok, thanks Kevin!
 
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