kerosene as a flux

S.Grosvenor

S.Grosvenor

Fulltime KnifeMaker
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Jan 24, 2010
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I would like to try welding stainless to carbon steel and I understand some use kerosene as a flux

How does that work? Do you let it dry before putting in forge? Seems Like there would be some flare up?
 
I think Kyle Royer has some youtube demo videos where he uses it.

check the titles for
"Journey to MS" or something like that.

I don't think you let it dry.
I think it wicks its way between the stacked plates with capillary action and coats the steel.- then creates a rich burn carbonizing environment
 
Fred Rowe has been using kerosene. His recent post detailed that he started having success when his welds were keeping the billet from moving. Otherwise the "shell" would crack. Hopefully he'll pipe in, or maybe Karl Anderson if he's not too busy getting ready for the ABS expo.
 
I use it but it is used to help hold borax on the billet as it heats. Kinda like a glue but it is the borax that helps in the weld. At least thats how I use it.
 
If you are using a hydrocarbon solvent, like kerosene, keeping the billet from moving while it comes to temp helps with your success. Put the billet in the forge right after soak in liquid. You don't want to move the billet after it goes into the forge, the carbon shell can crack. Try it out on a few layers of mild steel and see how the shell is formed. Its an air tight jacket and interesting to watch it form. I still use borax on occasion but if I can avoid it I would rather not.

Fred
 
Fred.Rowe said:
If you are using a hydrocarbon solvent, like kerosene, keeping the billet from moving while it comes to temp helps with your success. Put the billet in the forge right after soak in liquid. You don't want to move the billet after it goes into the forge, the carbon shell can crack. Try it out on a few layers of mild steel and see how the shell is formed. Its an air tight jacket and interesting to watch it form. I still use borax on occasion but if I can avoid it I would rather not.

Fred
Click to expand...

Fred,

I realize that when you make your first "Weld" after removing it from the forge, the carbon shell probably explodes. What about the "INSIDE" of the billet?

Maybe I am missing something. Could you point me in the right direction? I am Sooooooooo tired of borax eating my forge liners.

Robert
 
Robert Dark said:
Fred,

I realize that when you make your first "Weld" after removing it from the forge, the carbon shell probably explodes. What about the "INSIDE" of the billet?

Maybe I am missing something. Could you point me in the right direction? I am Sooooooooo tired of borax eating my forge liners.

Robert
Click to expand...

What are you referring to Robert when you say inside the billet? The carbon shell formed by the hydrocarbon solvent shatters when pressed. The sides pop off in a sheet, the surface where the dies make contact stay in place. Flip the billet and press lightly and this carbon will come off as well.
Fred
 
I think he means what about the carbon in between the layers? Building on that, you would need to clean the mill scale from the layers before trying to weld with this method would you not? Borax will liquify and carry the impurities out with it to a degree, but the kerosene method would just trap it in there, wouldn't it?
 
What I'm curious about- is the carbon jacket only good for one heat? Is it effective to re-dip in kero after every welding heat? So, you'd have to wait for the billet to cool enough to dip it after every welding heat?

Seems like a method ill-suited for hand welding, might work OK under my #50? Or is a press best?
 
mgysgthath said:
I think he means what about the carbon in between the layers? Building on that, you would need to clean the mill scale from the layers before trying to weld with this method would you not? Borax will liquify and carry the impurities out with it to a degree, but the kerosene method would just trap it in there, wouldn't it?
Click to expand...

I always clean the factory scale off before making up a billet. The surfaces stay clean during heat up and welding. Think of the space between layers as a reservoir for the HCS. The burning of the HCS takes place on the outside surface of the billet, the fuel being supplied by the liquid held between the layers.Once the solvent is consumed the surfaces to be welded are left clean. Its an interesting process to watch inside the forge. The carbon jacket does not appear until the temp reaches the mid 2200's, you can watch it form on the surface of the billet. The jacket is 1/16" plus.

Salem Straub said:
What I'm curious about- is the carbon jacket only good for one heat? Is it effective to re-dip in kero after every welding heat? So, you'd have to wait for the billet to cool enough to dip it after every welding heat?

Seems like a method ill-suited for hand welding, might work OK under my #50? Or is a press best?
Click to expand...
I weld using a press and weld the whole billet in one heat. Not a flux for hand welding.
 
Fred, when you say in one heat, do you squash the whole billet in the dies at once, or pinch off sections? If the carbon jacket falls off, I'm thinking you must need to squash the whole billet at once, or risk oxygen getting between the layers during pinching. How many tons is your press just out of curiousity?
 
mgysgthath said:
Fred, when you say in one heat, do you squash the whole billet in the dies at once, or pinch off sections? If the carbon jacket falls off, I'm thinking you must need to squash the whole billet at once, or risk oxygen getting between the layers during pinching. How many tons is your press just out of curiousity?
Click to expand...
I have one of Bowies 25 ton presses. The welding dies are 6 X 6 and yes the billet gets welded in one press. Its just like doing a canister weld.

Fred
 
I am still a bit of a nervous nelly about the whole thing, so I soak in kerosene for the first welding pass in the press and then sprinkle a little borax on the sides for the second pass to make sure the very edges are closed up. With that said, using the kerosene for the first passed has made for fully welded billets with no flaws every time that I have done it. I have used kerosene and heat treat foil for Ferry flip welding and it is pretty fun to watch that jet of flame should out from the seam of the foil. lol
 
jdm61 said:
I am still a bit of a nervous nelly about the whole thing, so I soak in kerosene for the first welding pass in the press and then sprinkle a little borax on the sides for the second pass to make sure the very edges are closed up. With that said, using the kerosene for the first passed has made for fully welded billets with no flaws every time that I have done it. I have used kerosene and heat treat foil for Ferry flip welding and it is pretty fun to watch that jet of flame should out from the seam of the foil. lol
Click to expand...

I follow the same technique. The nervous part just means you really enjoy what your doing.
 
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