Kershaw Cyclone

Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
25
Hey all. First i would like to say, these forums have gotten me 2 knifes in 2 months, a Buck Strider 881 with BG-42, and a kershaw blur with s30v blade (in the mail), thanks for the help with getting rid of my money :D

I have a question about the Kershaw mini cyclone. I was looking around kershaws site and got interested in the on-off function for the AO. I was mostly wondering about the steel though. When i went on eBay, i found one that was a frame lock, and a steel called "ZDP-189 Stainless" and titanium handles, a good amount more $ than the normal ones.

This looks a good amount better then the normal, liner lock mini-cyclone. But i was wondering how this ZDP-189 Stainless compares to the two steels i already have, BG-42 and soon, s30v. I was also wondering if there going to be coming out with a normal size cyclone with frame lock and the higher-end blade steel?
 
The short answer is to read any of the MANY recent threads on this topic, but i'll give you my answer anyway...

I don't own a cyclone, or a Ti framelock, or anything with ZDP189, but honestly, when you put those three things together its enough to make almost any knife nut need to change his shorts. Ti framelocks are about as good as you can get, and ZDP189 is THE "in" steel as of now. It is incredibly hard and holds a razor sharp edge for a LONG time. Overall, the verdict seems to be that this is a GREAT knife. Some say the edge thickness is a little too thick but others say they would not even have noticed until it was pointed out.
 
I think the edge thickness may just need to be sorted out- Kershaw had problems with edges when they did the Leeks in ZDP189- it's hard to sharpen. They got it straightened out with the Leeks in the second batch, though, and I'm sure they'll resharpen any Cyclones that aren't razors out of the box.

Honestly, there's magnitudes of difference between 440A or 420HC and S30V or any of the other super steels, but BG42 and S30V are fantastic cutlery steels- it's just that ZDP189 has the limelight right now- it used to be S30V that was the miracle steel. *shrug* They're all good.
 
I have no problem sharpening ZDP-189 Leek at all, ever! More then this whe I asked clearly what kind of problem with what kind of sharpening system this problems happen - I have no answer! Again let hear what kind of problem with sharpening and is it ZDP problem or just someone need to learn how to sharpen or use right tool.

I am still wondering why this topic was brought up - ZDP is easy to sharpen to amazing sharpness then so called easy to sharpen steels like 420HC etc. - all this entry level steel.

ZDP189 has 64-65HRC with 67HRC available, it has 3% C and 20% Cr.

And so far it is best steel on the market IMHO (I am wondering what CPM S125V is - Sal sad he is not able to grind it - seems like blade grinding the wheel!).

Thanks, Vassili.
 
It's a great little knife. The framle lock is awsome. I'm not into the steel-of-the-week game, but it cuts really well.

It is a bit pricey, though. A budget version would be great, i.e. use something not as exotic and hard to get as ZDP.

--dan
 
I was also wondering if there going to be coming out with a normal size cyclone with frame lock and the higher-end blade steel?
No plans as of today, sorry.

madcap_magician said:
I'm sure they'll resharpen any Cyclones that aren't razors out of the box.
madcap, these Cyclone's are all sharp out of the box. ;)
 
No plans as of today, sorry.

May be you will think about this bit more? Spyderco now only has full size knive with ZDP - Endura. But with Titanium handle big Cyclone will be hard to beat.

Initially you sad you have some ZDP left after Leek run and now after Cyclone - do you have any ZDP left for new limited runs?

Actially I think JD and JDII will be excellent candidates for this runs also, really. And I promise not to modify it if you don't like it.

madcap, these Cyclone's are all sharp out of the box. ;)

Yes, and I used one to shave hairs around pretty deep scratch near my wrist to put band-aid on.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Initially you sad you have some ZDP left after Leek run and now after Cyclone - do you have any ZDP left for new limited runs?
Hi Vassili, yes we do have some ZDP left, and do have a project for it. The details of it will be available after the Blade Show next month.

We should have an SG2 clad project ready by month's end though.:D
 
Thomas, I would settle ;) for a full size framelock Cyclone in S30V, or maybe better yet, CPM 154.

I love my ti/zdp cyclone, the first knife to force a Sebenza out of my pocket since my Onion Mid-Tech Boa. It is THAT good!
 
I don't know what is SG-2. So I have to do some googling:

This is very interesting generic info on PM. I can see that SG2 are hardened to 64HRC. Other info - again it is 64HRC and "finest in use today molecular structure".

Are you talking about kitchen knifes of folder?
What will it be?
What is the composition of this steel?

Thanks, Vassili.

Information I found:
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Unlike VG-10, SG-2 is powdered steel. To understand what this means, you have to understand what powdered steel is, how it is made, and what advantages it brings to the table. The best way to do this is to first compare the perfect steel to the perfect chocolate chip cookie. When making steel the term carbides gets used a lot. A carbide is the combination of the carbon and chromium molecule. These carbides give the steel is hardness and resistance to rust. Carbides can combine to create different sizes or end up clustered in some parts of the steel leaving other areas without their benefit. How is this like a chocolate chip cookie? Well imagine if you mix the chocolate chips aka the carbides into the dough unevenly, and make the cookies. You will end up with some cookies with too many chips and some with none. This of course ruins the flavor and texture of the cookie. In steel, what you get is weak points and corrosion. The challenge when making steel is to keep the elements and carbides evenly displaced. The problem arises that when you mix all of the elements in large quantities, the outer part of the mixture cools faster than the inner part and the elements start to separate. The carbides also start to form unevenly and in different sizes, just like a poorly made chocolate chip cookie. It’s also kind of like raw milk from a cow. If you let it sit, the cream rises to the top, and the solids sink to the bottom. Turning the molten mixture into powdered steel is like pasteurizing the milk. Once the process is completed the elements no longer separate, just like when raw milk is pasteurized and becomes whole milk, the cream and solids no longer separate.

How do they do this? First they heat up all the iron and elements in their recipe into a hot molten steel soup, and then mix it all together till they have even dispersal of all of the elements throughout the soup. Then they spray the molten mixture through something that resembles a garden hose nozzle set on wide disbursement. As they do this, liquid nitrogen is also sprayed through the same nozzle and instantly cools down each micro droplet making a perfect mini ingot with perfect size carbides and element dispersal. From there, you reheat the powder and form it into an ingot using what we call the HIP process

The way they form the powdered steel in to a large ingot, is to put the powder mixture in to a big steel can. A steel disc covering the top of the can is welded on, and then all of the air is sucked out and replaced with argon gas. The can is then put inside an auto clave, which is a large pressurized chamber, and then the chamber is filled with argon and heated up. This is called the HIP process, which stands for Hot Isostatic Press. Heating the argon causes it to expand creating perfectly even pressure, perfectly compressing the powder in to the ingot. The reason you have argon in both the auto clave and the canister, is so you have equal pressure on either side of the can. If you had argon only on the inside or only on the outside of the can, it would either be crushed or explode as the argon expanded in the HIP process. It is important to note that we don’t heat up the powder till it is molten, only enough for the ingot to form. If we made it molten again, then everything we accomplished by making it into powder in the first place would be undone. The elements would start to separate and the carbides wouldn’t have even dispersal or uniform size. The reason they use argon as opposed to hydrogen which also expands greatly when it is heated, is because argon is inert. Hydrogen isn’t. If hydrogen is exposed to just one spark under that type of heat and pressure, which is entirely possible considering what we are working with, it would create what we call in the manufacturing world, “a really big BOOM”. Imagine the Hindenburg. I am sure you can see why that could be considered a “bad thing.” The end result is a perfect large ingot with absolute density, perfect grain structure, and perfectly even element and carbide dispersal ready for the rolling mill, where it is pounded down and clad with an SUS410 cover to form the blank for our Shun Elite. Similar to what we do for regular Shun.

What is the advantage here? Well imagine that steel is like fabric. Regular stainless steel would be like burlap. Strong but with lots of holes and hard to cut and sew. VG10 would be like denim. Much tighter weave easier to cut for sewing and a lot more durable. SG2 would be like fine silk. Super fine threads for maximum density, super flexible, easiest to cut and sew, and definitely the strongest fabric that will last the longest even though it is the thinnest. In all of the cutting steels that I have come across in my 17 years of housewares, SG2 simply blows everything else away for performance, edge retention, and re-sharpening. Because of the powderizing and HIP processes, you end up with an alloy that has a much higher density and grain structure with no imperfections or weak points. Just like silk. This allows us to increase the Rockwell hardness to 64, and the edge will still have flexibility so it won’t chip, and can be re-sharpened. Even if it is paper thin.
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The core of a Shun Elite knife is SG-2 exotic powdered steel that is hardened under heat and pressure into a dense and hard alloy. The Rockwell (Hardness) rating of Shun Elite is 64, as compared to most kitchen knives ranging from 56 to 58 Rockwell. The SG-2 molecular structure is the finest in use today, resulting in an edge that lasts longer than any other available today. The edge is smooth and incredibly sharp, yet will still respond quickly to a honing rod when necessary.
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Yes SG - most likely Super Gold. For some reason Japanese metallurgists like to call new steel - gold something. Like GIN-1 was GoldPaper steel etc. Fallkniven presents Super Gold Powder Steel - which may be similar to SG2, I may speculate that it is second generation of SGPS.

I am not sure why it is old news? Also I am not sure that Fallkniven pioneered it - I guess correct statement will be they present this steel to US market first, most likely it is Hattory who pioneered it.

Anyway we may expect better price form Kershaw even it is SGPS or next generation of it and better model - I wish it will be JDII. Looking forward to see Thomas answers.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Sounds like SGPS that Fallkniven has pioneered ... old news.

NJ
NJ, Kai Corp. has been using VG-10 clads and Super Gold for a number of years now, but this is the first time SG2 will be processed and used in a Kershaw pattern that is made in the US.
We are also processing solid ZDP here in Oregon, so utilizing these super steels are not so new for us either.

I think it is pretty exciting, but that doesn't mean the project will be for everyone.
 
If Kershaw is processing its own ZDP, does that mean you guys don't have the huge wait time for ZDP?
 
Thomas, I would settle ;) for a full size framelock Cyclone in S30V, or maybe better yet, CPM 154.

I love my ti/zdp cyclone, the first knife to force a Sebenza out of my pocket since my Onion Mid-Tech Boa. It is THAT good!

TiZDP has forced others out of my pocket too.

And, I especially agree with Stjames' suggestion on the steels for a larger framelock Cyclone. Favor CPM 154 also. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
TiZDP has forced others out of my pocket too.

And, I especially agree with Stjames' suggestion on the steels for a larger framelock Cyclone. Favor CPM 154 also. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Japan has better to offer - SRS15, HighSpeed Stainless PM Steel - it is really good! And it is in use for a while for kitchen knives and also Big Samurai Bowie. I rather have it, but for full size Cyclone I think ZDP-189 will be just fine. Endura has similar size and has ZDP189 without any problem. However full size ZDP Cyclne will easy force anything out of the pocket, only Spyderco ZDP Lum Chinese may compete with it.

It will be nice to see SRS15. Japan seems to goes beyond 64HRC now, I hope Crucible will came up with something - looking forward to it.

Thomas, again what model with SG2 you will have at the end of this month?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
If Kershaw is processing its own ZDP, does that mean you guys don't have the huge wait time for ZDP?
dano, you just have to buy a bunch of it to keep the delays to a minimum. I believe there will be at least 2 more ZDP projects this year (no details on what they are as of today).

Because of the time it takes to get SG2, and the fact it has to be brought in, SG2 has not been thought of in a MIM'd blade.
samhain, yes SG2 is a PM steel, and could possibly be used in a molded blade, but at this time, working with a steel manufacturer out of Japan on a project like this is not realistic today.

Thomas, again what model with SG2 you will have at the end of this month
I'll have details and pricing by the end of the week.
 
dano, you just have to buy a bunch of it to keep the delays to a minimum. I believe there will be at least 2 more ZDP projects this year (no details on what they are as of today).

Please, make it full size TiCyclone. Both my miniCyclones asking for Big Brother - crying for Big Brother.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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