Kershaw Outcast, second generation (?)

Joined
Mar 13, 2000
Messages
599
I have been busy this month, I think I burned up the knife budget for a while. :eek: I noticed that the Outcast was undergoing an MSRP bump, from $100 (I think?) to $125, so I thought I jump on the old price while it was still out there - New Graham, $53 bucks ($56?) plus shipping.

Anyway, first impressions - I think I got one of the new production models. The sheath has no keeper strap with a snap, just the kydex friction fit. (Which is excellent.) And compared to other reviews I read here, mine seems to have been ground to a much thicker edge before sharpening. I can't find my vernier, my straight caliper puts the edge right about 0.080". That's well over 1/16", closer to 3/32" (or 2mm, for the rest of the world.) I'm wondering if that is a factory choice for the second run, or just production variation

That said - it's not marketed as filet knife, is it? :) But that's thicker than any of my production knives - Cold Steel LTC Kukri, Blackjack Panga, Big Country Hookr, Spec Plus Survival Bowie - I stopped checking my smaller fixed blades when the caliper locked at that setting went halfway up the primary bevel of a couple of them. :D

Interestingly, that seems to be just about the exact edge thickness of my modern Martindale and Collins machetes, although it's much thicker than the edge on my good, fullforged old machetes.

It is nicely ground. The variation is not of the cookie cutter machine flat grind style, thinner edged where the blade is narrow and thinner where it swells, like my Spec Plus. I'm guessing hand ground (in China), or else it's a nice case of programmed grinding but with some inconsistencies. Through the coating, it LOOKS hand ground - some spots where you can see traces of the coarse hogging belt (50 grit or so) and places where you can't.

I think this is the new black blade finish - Teflon rather than titanium oxide? I've only had it in the woods for an hour or so, but the finish is holding up OK - about the same as the old Benchmade BT2, not as good as their new BK ceramic or Ontario's baked epoxy. We'll see over time.

Based again on my eyeball on the caliper, the D2 is even thicker than Kershaw says - I think they advertise 3/16" (~0.188", right?) and I'm seeing about 0.200". Sweet!

The edge came sharp - it would *just* shave, but did it nicely - but a hair obtuse. Just as a quick confirmation, I kissed it with Sharpie and touched it down the Sharpmaker today - wa-a-a-a-y over 40 degrees included. Well, the edge should be tough as hell, we'll see about the cutting. :)

I'll try to get some pics tomorrow when I can get together with my digital camera guru.

I like the sheath - a nicer Kydex job than I'm used on a piece this big at this price. The pseudo-TekLok belt fastener, by "American Sportsmen's Products", I'm not sure about yet. Given that the belt part is multiply relieved for TekLok size Chicago screws, I wish it wasn't riveted together. The whole assemly is Chicago screwed to the sheath. I may drill those rivets out and see what kind of adjustability I get putting Chicagos in there. But again, I think Kershaw was trying to bring a lot of knife (and a lot of sheath) to market at an affordable price. I certainly have no quality beef with the fastener. I do wish it was set up to mount at more than one place, but it IS just Kydex - ten seconds with a drill or sixty with a pointy knife and you have a new mounting hole. :cool:

Only one immediate thing that annoyed me. While the knife is very prominently marked - the blade front is
Kershaw (r)
Ken Onion
tool D2 steel
and the back is
KAI 1079
and boldly molded into the top front face of the handle is
Kershaw
molded into back side, much more lightly, all the way down at the butt by the lanyard passage, is a teeny tiny little

CHINA

It just feels... Let me put it like this. Benchmade and Spyderco have some of their knives made in Asia. And they mark it on the blade, in the same size font as the company name, and they stamp or etch it just as deep as the company name. If you're going to make some of your knives in China, don't make me search all over the blade and squint to find out. It smacks of having something to hide, and abiding by the finest, skinniest letter of the law to further that intention.

I'm sorry, it's just a little thing. I knew the knife was made in China when I bought it. But the way it's marked obviously got under my skin.

And while the box (Wow, I guess this does bug me, I'm digging out BOXES to compare now! Call it a hobbyhorse.) says Made in China in smaller letters than the bold kai USA logo, the Benchmade Red box uses the same font for Benchmade and Taiwan. And the Made in China is only a little smaller than the kai USA.

But having obsessed, I have to give Kershaw points. I went digging through my box full of knife boxes. (You all DO keep your knife boxes, don't you? Please tell me it's not just me. :D ) And Kershaw seems well above industry average. While Benchmade, CRKT, Junglee, and Jaguar (Jaguar?!) mark their retail boxes with the knife's country of origin, those who don't include not just the junkers like "Super Knife" (not the razor blade) and EdgeCo, but Cold Steel, Outdoor Edge, SOG - and Spyderco (Spyderco?!!!) So kudos, Kershaw, for printing it on the box.

Now put it on the blade like you do with your Oregon USA knives. :p

Into the woods! It was lightly snowing, and I should have worn a warmer hat. I slipped the pooch off his leash to wreak havoc on the morale of the local squirrels, and started whacking. For comparison I took a Cold Steel LTC Kukri, a Spec Plus Survival Bowie, and my passaround BM Rukus.

It took me a while to settle into the handle, but that was because I was overthinking it. I was looking at the 10" blade and the big long handle and figuring I should choke back and slip-swing it with the last couple inches of butt in a two or three finger snap grip.

Nope. Tried that. It chopped - but was getting outcut by not only the slightly longer and heavier (and much more forward balanced) kukri, but the Survival Bowie as well.

So I said maybe Ken Onion knows what he's doing, ;) went all the way up, forefinger in the front finger stall, and - BANG. Like a hatchet. The kukri was still outchopping it, but it was much closer, and completely passed the Bowie.

Given the obtuse sharpened angle and thick edge, I wasn't expecting much on little stuff, and I was right. On greenery, twigs, suckers and brambles, it not only couldn't compete with the other choppers, it wasn't even in the same league with the folding Rukus. Edge geometry, baby.

But on sapling and thick branches it was pretty sweet. The edge geometry did cause some undesirable side effects. If my first (or fifth) chop went well over halfway through something that wasn't real hardwood, the fat, obtuse edge would put a lot of energy in, but not be able to penetrate farther, and the branch or sapling would tear with the grain and hang, ripped, from the other side - not severed, not necessarily out of the way, and harder to finish cutting than if it still had its integrity. Now anyone who has chopped brush knows this happens - but it happened a LOT with the Outcast, once in a while with the LTC Kukri or Survival Bowie.

Now back to the big kudos to Kershaw. Once I got myself into the performance groove with the new toy, I went for the tough stuff. I deliberately chopped right through knots in oak, both live and standing deadwood. The Outcast didn't quite keep up with the LTC Kukri, but outclassed the Spec Plus.

But the big difference was when I got home. The Cold Steel's Carbon V edge had performed well, but had some visible flat spots and tiny edge rolling from playing with oak knots in the freezing air. The Ontario's 1095 had no visible damage, but would no longer shave. Both still would cut printer paper.

The Kershaw's D2, while it had barely shaved out of the box, still barely shaved. As far as I could tell, the edge was completely unchanged. And in my book, that's a big, big plus mark.

I own this bad boy, so I have no proscription to baby it, and I plan to give it a lot of serious woods carry for at least the next month - and if it keeps showing that kind of edge holding in the face of hard use, it may just become my regular bush baby. I'm hoping the Kershaw rep who hangs out here will chime in - I'd like to know if my edge is an abberation, or the new standard. If it's the way they come now, then it will probably wind up having an appointment in the basement with Mr Burr King. I'll at least reset the edge to something in the 40 degree included range, and maybe thin out the edge of the primary grind as well. Of course, if I do that, I'll probably just convex the edge. And if it shows this kind of toughness and wear resistance with a thinned edge, well, I think I'll be recommending to my friends.

I hope Thomas W from Kershaw pops in, I'd love to hear his take on the edge thickness and angle and which surface treatment I have.
 
Very nice review Nick. I have always thought that the Outcast was an exceptionally good bargain for what you get qualitywise (even if it is made in China.)

Got mine last year for less than $50 but I knew this kind of pricepoint would not last. Several others have commented on these forums about what a nice knife this is. Glad you are happy, just as I am happy with mine.
 
Digdeep, what's the edge on yours like? Thick like mine, or thin like the three or four other reviews I've seen here?
 
Nick Hyle said:
Digdeep, what's the edge on yours like? Thick like mine, or thin like the three or four other reviews I've seen here?

Compared to the other large fixed blades I own (and I'm eyeballing it) it seems to be on the thin side. The top of the spine when measured with a ruler is 3/16 ". Apparently, like you say, you seem to have a newer version with a thicker edge which is probably a good thing for a steel like D2.
 
Nick Hyle said:
...my straight caliper puts the edge right about 0.080"...

...wa-a-a-a-y over 40 degrees included.

For wood work, even really hard batoning through thick knots you need 0.030/20 degrees and for just chopping you can cut that down to 0.020/15. Nice looking blade but that edge profile is horrible. If you cut that down to a sensible angle it is going to end up *wide* and ease of sharpening, especially considering it is D2 is going to be horrible.

Too bad they don't use a sensible steel, it isn't like you can't get sufficient hardness (which is all that is resisting deformation) in much tougher steels which are also much easier to grind, which makes them cheaper to make and easier for the user to maintain. Maybe yours was just a defect/abberation.

Nice work.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I have a Burr King with the knifemaker configuration in the basment - if I do wind up creating and maintaining a wide (convex?) bevel it should be reasonably painless.

Power tools, baby. :)

I'm thinking I really don't want to go below the 0.030" edge at ~ 20 degrees area, since personally I'd rather have bulletproof and give up a little potential performance than have screaming edge geometry performance but risk damaging the blade if I swing hard into the wrong stuff.

If I was chopping wood for a living I might feel differently, but as a modern boy who likes sharp toys, I just don't need that kind of cutting ability enough to trade off the durability.

To the steel thing - I paid $56 and change for a 10" blade of D2. (It would be sixty-something this week, I got in right before the price jump.) Now if someone starts making a chopper at anywhere near that street price in a seriously suitable steel - 3V, A8, CPM S7 - hell yes, let me know, I want one! What I know is so far it seems to be outperforming my factory carbon steel choppers. Of course the real proof will be when I sharpen down as thin as they are now - I'm sure part of the durability I'm seeing is the rather obtuse bevel backed up by the thick edge.

I had it out playing in the oak forest for another hour or so today - I know some guys have found the handle a little thin for their comfort, but the more I get used to it the better I like it.

We'll see in a couple months what I think without the winter gloves! :D
 
The silly thing is, it would be far cheaper to make it out of a more suitable steel, both in terms of steel cost and grinding and heat treating. That edge configuration, 0.030x20 is really overbuilt, I can't even ripple that using a several pound baton and chisel cutting through knots. If the edge goes in that configuration then either you are strong enough to just tear apart wood without the knife, or the steel wasn't hardened.

Too bad they don't make it in L6 with a sensible edge configuration, I can see not running it right to tolerance because you have to take into account slop when grinding production blades and just user (ab)use, but even the heavy tacticals rarely go above 0.035", and that is more of a cutting tool than a heavy baton implement.

A lot of blade for that price though as noted, nice setup, I have a CPM-10V blade I need to regrind it pretty much ignores 80 grit belts on a 1" belt sander, I spent half an hour trying to reduce edge thickness from ~0.020 and might as well have been polishing it with cork.

-Cliff
 
I've had the Burr King for years, I'm one of those guys who keeps thinking THIS year I'll go from knifemaking and modifying hobbyist to Knifemaker, just as soon as I get my act together. :)

I think the big problem with the little 1" belt sanders is that while they're fine for pure sharpening, 95% of them just don't have the power to do serious stock removal in hard steel, let alone hard high alloy steel. There are a couple of heavy duty, half horsepower 1" rigs - but they're expensive. I tend to point people at something like a 4"x36" or even 6"x48" - they're not THAT much more expensive than a 1"x42", they have much more power, and they're more versatile as a wood finishing machine.

Or if you have very good hands you can do heavy stock removal very fast with a 4-6" angle grinder, and they're cheap as dirt these days. High, ah, probability for error in that kind of application, though. :eek:

Silly question - are you using high end belts? 3M ceramics, etc? I just don't buy cheap belts anymore.

I am a little surprised, given the popularity of L6 with old school makers, that no one does anything with it commercially. It certainly isn't significantly harder to heat treat than things like 0170-C and 1095. I do think in production knives these days there is a BIG bias, understandably, for using air hardening steels. Fine, why doesn't anyone commercially sell a chopper in A8?

I do think that as long as I don't thin the edge out absurdly flimsy, the D2 could give me excellent performance. I love the way it's holding up now, and the advantage of the current edge is think I probably could do the full power swing into a nail or whatever and still sail along. As a guy interested in sword edge geometry as well as knives, I'm leaning toward treating this puppy as a fun testbed for a while.
 
Nick Hyle said:
I think the big problem with the little 1" belt sanders is that while they're fine for pure sharpening, 95% of them just don't have the power to do serious stock removal in hard steel, let alone hard high alloy steel.

Yes, I only intended to use it to rip edges, which it does fine, however on some knives, especially ones which you use a lot and sharpen a lot, it is nice to take the primary down instead of bleeding the edge back more as trying to sharpening a wide bevel on a hard to grind steel is just way to inefficient, it begins to be similar to hand polishing the flats with sanding blocks - forget that.

Or if you have very good hands you can do heavy stock removal very fast with a 4-6" angle grinder, and they're cheap as dirt these days. High, ah, probability for error in that kind of application, though.

Yes, have used that on axes, it would be interesting to try to bring down the flat on a light hunter that way though.

Silly question - are you using high end belts? 3M ceramics, etc? I just don't buy cheap belts anymore.

I have bought better ones, but mainly work on easy to grind steels, I usually use it for machetes and such. In general I don't try to adjust primary grinds, I have a half a dozen blades which could use such a treatement, but most of them would benefit from a hollow grind anyway so I think a wet wheel grinder would be a better investment.

I am a little surprised, given the popularity of L6 with old school makers, that no one does anything with it commercially.

It rusts if you look at it the wrong way, you take a nice axe with that type of steel and come in out of the cold, and unless you dry the head and grease it right away it will rust due to condensation while you change your clothes and put some more wood on the fire. Now all that great edge holding you get from the toughness is wasted because the rust eats the edge to pieces. Cut a piece of meat, or some fruit and don't wipe it right away and the same thing and now the flats look blotchy as well.

Fine, why doesn't anyone commercially sell a chopper in A8?

[insert Busse joke here]

Because stainless is king and few in general realize that there is little advantage to high wear resistance in heavy chopping tools because they blunt by deformation / fracture. Some of those steels are also not readily available in actual knife blade stock.

-Cliff
 
I've been meaning to pick one of these up for awhile. You got a deal - they're up to $69.50 now at NGK, (which was still a good price).
 
Yeah, I'm looking at my New Graham box - $56.25.

One of my serious thug buddies is visiting for a couple days, he loves it already. We'll smack it around some more.
 
Nick,

Thanks for the review on the Outcast -

The Retail price was increased due to Steel prices :eek:

The coating on your Outcast is Black Teflon.

The blades are machine ground - we use Berger grinding machines in our factory in China - as you know that is were it is made - ps - the Sheath is made in the USA.

The Edge thickness is spec'd at .050" -.070" before sharpening.

The reason for the thicker edge is that D2 is not as flexible as other steels that are normally used for brush knives. The D2 does however offer a cutting edge that is much more durable and we wanted to offer this to the consumer at an affordable price.

I hope this answers your questions.

Craig Green
Factory Manager
Kershaw Knives.
 
That edge thickness is really extreme, during R&D what did you do to induce failure in edges 0.035" thick after sharpening?

-Cliff
 
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