Kershaw SpeedSafe legal in NYC?

[Zindaras]

Hey guys, I've had a bit of a puzzler I've been working on, and thought you might be able to help. I've recently been looking into buying a Kershaw, but I'm not sure if their SpeedSafe assisted opening would make them count as switchblades under NYC law.

New York City Law states that "A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when: He possesses any... gravity knife [or] switchblade knife" which it defines thusly: ""Switchblade knife" means any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife. 5. "Gravity knife" means any knife has blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity of the application of centrifugal force which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device."

From how I read it, the gray area lies in the definition of the word "automatically".

Kershaw SpeedSafe knives do "open by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife", but whether they do so "automatically" is another question. I've heard SpeedSafe classified as "assisted opening" rather than "automatic", but I'd like to be more clear on exactly how it works.

I've heard that NYC can be pretty harsh in the way they interpret the law, so the line between "automatic" and "assisted opening" is one that I'd like to know more about before I buy a knife and take it into the city. I've seen SpeedSafe in action on a transparent-front knife in a video interview with Ken Onion, but have to admit that I didn't quite understand the mechanics of it. Could anybody offer a detailed explanation that states (especially) why it isn't "automatic" under the law?

What I'd really like to be able to do is say "Well you see, Officer, it's actually not a switchblade; if you'll look closely here..."

Help me finish that sentence, would you?

 

[bobby.t]

Kershaw SpeedSafe knives do "open by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife"

No they don't. You manipulate the blade to open it, so it's no different from a thumb hole or thumb stud. Speed Safe uses a cam that pushes the blade closed up to a certain point, and once you move it past that point it pushes the blade open. A switchblade mechanism acts to open it, and you hit the button to release it. That's what makes the distinction. Re-read the switchblade definition:

"by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife"

 

[mp510]

They would, however, be considered gravity knives in NYC. They meet the centrifugial force definition. They can easily be flicked open.

 

[bobby.t]

Flicked open = manipulating the blade, therefore legal.

Unless you're talking about that goofy practice of holding the blade in your hand and swinging the weight of the knife handle to see if it'll open. Not sure if NYC is one of the places I've heard of that distorted the original meaning of the law to make it mean that, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Be real careful giving "legal" advice when you aren't really familiar with the situation. Too many of our people have been hassled, and some arrested, in NYC.

The knives in question would have been legal by the previous interpretation of the law, but if the officer can force the knife open by swinging it by handle or blade, it is now considered a "gravity knife".

Another problem is that NYC insists knives be carried completely concealed. A pocket clip can get you in trouble.

Slipjoints are legal to carry, as the definition of gravity knife includes locking open, but they still have to be completely concealed. I wouldn't use a belt pouch.

 

[Zindaras]

Wow, thanks for all the help, fellas. I'm amazed at getting such great responses so fast, these forums seem to be pretty awesome!

"by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife"

Ooookay, I see it now. It's not manipulating a device in the handle of the knife, but rather that metal fllippy thinger in the back is a protrusion on the blade itself. Therefore it's just... getting another angle on the blade, as it were. How clever!

Regarding the gravity knife stuff, I'm really pleased to have your input on that as I wouldn't have ever considered that interpretation of the law. Sort of a silly one, since you could probably flip open any SAK that way if you had strong fingernails .
It also seems that there is a precedent for hassling folks about obvious carrying, but also that it's nothing that'll get you charged with anything:

"Accused's possession of knife in case attached to his
belt, with long handle protruding and case sheathing blade
concealed inside accused's trousers, did not constitute
violation... absent evidence of design on accused's part
to use the knife unlawfully." (1974)

Still, I'd rather be safe than sorry, I'll definitely keep it deep in my pocket, especially as the case referred to above was in '74 while in '99 the Queens DA stated that:

"It is hereby declared and found that possession in public places, streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition encourages and fosters the commission of crimes and contributes to juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and threatening to the public and should be prohibited." Gotta love the vagueness on "large knives", and also the way that in the last sentence it just says "knives" making that a great one to quote out of context to say whatever you want it to mean. *sigh*.


By the way, speaking of which knives can be flipped open by their blades (thus maybe construable as "gravity knives") do any of you have experience with Kershaw Shallots? I've been looking for a solid but attractive folder and while I'm still having a bit of trouble deciding, the Shallot seems to be the way I'm leaning.

Could anybody try gravity-knife-opening their Shallot and see how it goes, so I'll know how to make my decision on that model? Thanks!

On an unrelated note, if you're a painter, you finally don't have to worry about being charged for being about to massacre everybody with the tools of your trade:

"Paint brush found in possession of a housepainter while on
his way home from work was not the kind of instrument
covered by... this section, prohibiting the carrying of a
dangerous weapon." (1962)

It makes you wonder how much these overly-restrictive laws actually help... I know that for handguns at least DC has a total ban but still has a rate of handgun death astronomically above anywhere else in the US, even when you look at it on a per-capita basis. As Rousseau said: "Laws restrict men without changing them."

 

[tom19176]

I have covered this a ton of times before but here it goes ( I am a former NYC LEO so other than Esav and mp150 the others have it wrong). In NYC blade has to UNDER 4" and can not be exposed in any way including pocket clip or belt sheath. State law(includes NYC of course), no Switchblades or Gravity knives ( except while fishing-hunting-trapping with license and only fishing is legal in NYC anyway). A gravity knife is ANY locking knife that the blade can be FLICKED open and this includes holding the blade and flicking the handle ( thank Syderco for that). Finally, as recent as last month when I last checked the NYPD considers assited openers to be first gravity knives as almost all can be flicked open , and they can also be defined as "dangerous" knives if they can't be flicked open. "Dangerous" knives are any knife whose primary design is for use as a weapon or that you carry with "intent to use as a weapon" which includes self defense. Please see yourself standing in front of a NYC Judge telling him that a knife that opens as fast as a switchblade ( but due to a small technicallity isn't one) is NOT designed to use as a weapon. If you see yourself winning that one, then I advise you take a day off and go to 110 Center Street and spend a day in court. If you still feel you are right, then go ahead but have the name of a good lawyer on you at all times.....

 

[tom19176]

Just wanted add one other quick item on assited openers in general. I like them and they are designed to fall outside the defintion of a switchblade by not have the release in the handle of the knife and also by requireing resistance to be overcome to open the knife. When Kershaw first introduced them they claimed they were legal in all 50 states. I have asked on the Kershaw Forum on this site ( a few years ago), if in fact Kershaw had checked with the Attorney General for all 50 states on that claim ( as I had read they did in a knife magazine article), but I was told that Kershaw can't say wheter or not their knives are legal in any particular area. In upstate NY, or long Island you most likely would not see strict enforcement on these, but in post Rudy NYC you will. In general, judges don't like items that shirt the law by a small change in design to make the item outside the law. You must also remember, that as long as the knife was not exposed, the officer must have a reason to search you. If the officer's reason to search is explained as "subject in a known drug location looking to buy" or something similar than just think of how the judge will review the AO in your pocket.....

 

[scarysharp]

Just to cut through all the chase here, in NYC they interpret the law ANYWAY they want to-
If you happen to get in deep "do-do", or just get stopped and patted down by a LEO and your knife becomes and "issue" you will need a good lawyer. PERIOD. It's just how it works in NYC.
That or you pull out a PBA card with a sargeants signature on the back and be on your way

 

[Zindaras]

Thanks for the great advice, guys. It's really a relief to get official word on this. Tom, I just want to say that it's awesome to get feedback from a former NYC LEO, and cool to see that you guys too can be "knife knuts". Thanks to your advice I'll definitely be carrying with the belt clip removed and the knife deep in my pocket, and the most action it'll see will be on recalcitrant packing tape.

As you'll see from the results of this thread I'll almost certainly be getting a Kershaw Shallot, and to make legality as little of an issue as possible I'm going to disable the SpeedSafe for anytime I'm in the city, probably only turning it back on for weekends if at all. Does anybody have any suggestions on the best way to do this for the Shallot, what kind of tools will be needed, and how permanent/reversible it is? Thanks!

 

[auspx]

Thanks for the great advice, guys. It's really a relief to get official word on this. Tom, I just want to say that it's awesome to get feedback from a former NYC LEO, and cool to see that you guys too can be "knife knuts". Thanks to your advice I'll definitely be carrying with the belt clip removed and the knife deep in my pocket, and the most action it'll see will be on recalcitrant packing tape.

As you'll see from the results of this thread I'll almost certainly be getting a Kershaw Shallot, and to make legality as little of an issue as possible I'm going to disable the SpeedSafe for anytime I'm in the city, probably only turning it back on for weekends if at all. Does anybody have any suggestions on the best way to do this for the Shallot, what kind of tools will be needed, and how permanent/reversible it is? Thanks!

I'm not sure how disabling the AO mechanism will be viewed any differently by the law. If that Kershaw knife can be flipped open and the blade locks it's still a "gravity knife" in NYC.

This is the only locking knife I carry in NYC.

http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Sw...e=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1210730350&sr=8-1

See how it doesn't look threatening. Plus it's very difficult to flip open and the blade is under 4".

 

[joe-bob]

They would, however, be considered gravity knives in NYC. They meet the centrifugial force definition. They can easily be flicked open.

To be honest about it, centrifugal force has nothing to do with it.

NYC has decided not to be honest about it.

When I win the lottery, I'm gonna see how many prosecutors I can put in jail.