Kershaw's Image in the Knife Community

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Moxy

Moxy

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This is a topic that I wanted to raise up for a while, but I didn't want it to stir up ----storm or be taken the wrong way. First off I'm talking about Kershaw here, not ZT. Secondly I love Kershaw's products. The little Scallion started it all for me a long time ago. It's true not every model has struck a chord with me. I've owned many and sold off many. But a few have really been special. I love ZT as well, but I tend to lean towards the EDC side of selection rather than the overbuilt side. Value and variety are, in my opinion, the best virtues of Kershaws products right now and in recent years.

It only been within the last year that I've started looking at higher end production knives and getting my feet wet in the mid-tech and custom market. As a result, build quality, material quality, FnF, feel, consistency, and reliability start working their way up the list. All of a sudden "Value and variety" is not what I'm after anymore. The funny thing is, when I look at my collection, some of my all time favorite folders I own are made by Kershaw. But they're the one-off exotics and sprints. My TiZDP mini cyclone and Ti SG2 Junkyard Dog are phenomenal! There is no doubt Kershaw knows how to produce high end folders that rival the best Spydercos and Benchmades. There are scores of enthusiasts who would love to get their hands on either of those, a Ti Leek or a Tilt. I'd love to see those in full production, however, yes they would be expensive.

Now look at ZT, flawless build quality, high-end materials, collaborations with the biggest names in the industry, and still considered high value even at their expensive prices. It seems to me like Kershaw is getting swept under the rug, or rather swept overseas. US produced products generally are higher quality, and as an American it's a good feeling seeing my favorite knives being made in my home country. Now if ZT were producing more EDC friendly knives, in addition to their overbuilt apocalyptic ready folders with all their assurances of quality, I'd get my fill of KAI products to join the EDC rotation along with my CRKs, Benchmades, and Spydercos. And there is a market for EDC friendly ZTs. Look at how many of us are doing backflips over the 770. But I'd be sad to see Kershaw fall behind though. I really think KAI is missing a big portion of the market, i.e. those who have graduated above FRN, stainless handels, and 8cr13mov, and would rather see more s30v and titanium, but don't want a small anvil in their pocket. Recent hiccups with some of Kershaw's latest models have me frowning more often than not. Now understand that I'm really picky and over-scrutinize ever tiny detail to no end, probably alot more than is warranted at the lower price-points, but things like my Echelon having a 1/4in length of unsharpened blade down towards the choil... c'mon. Then I read endless accounts of flawless blems that shouldn't in fact be blems. :confused:

I'm not saying Kershaw should altogether ditch their "value" lines, we wouldn't want to put Nutnfacy out of job, but I'd relish a %200 price increase if it meant more titanium and supersteels. Why does a Skyline in s30v have to be a sprint? I hated having to search for months to get my hands on my TiZDP mini cyclone at a decent price. The very fact that the collectors prices are so inflated is a dead giveaway that there is a market for more. Is a Ti framelock blur with KVT instead of speedsafe and CPM154 or s35vn such a crazy idea for a full production model? I'm loving the look of the new Injection, but why do we have to hope for a sprint run before we see anything better than 8cr13mov? I know all of this is easier said than done. I just don't like seeing Kershaw being overshadowed by ZT.
/*end rant*/
 
I believe most of the knives are sprint runs due to the availability of the materials used and time/cost factors.
 
I guess I'll try to answer you in order.

Moxy said:
but I tend to lean towards the EDC side of selection rather than the overbuilt side. Value and variety are, in my opinion, the best virtues of Kershaws products right now and in recent years.
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Absolutely. And that's also where ZT is going, however at an elevated price point. Funny how others don't want that, but want just overbuilt tanks. I lean towards your preferences it seems.

Moxy said:
It only been within the last year that I've started looking at higher end production knives and getting my feet wet in the mid-tech and custom market. As a result, build quality, material quality, FnF, feel, consistency, and reliability start working their way up the list. All of a sudden "Value and variety" is not what I'm after anymore. The funny thing is, when I look at my collection, some of my all time favorite folders I own are made by Kershaw. But they're the one-off exotics and sprints. My TiZDP mini cyclone and Ti SG2 Junkyard Dog are phenomenal! There is no doubt Kershaw knows how to produce high end folders that rival the best Spydercos and Benchmades. There are scores of enthusiasts who would love to get their hands on either of those, a Ti Leek or a Tilt. I'd love to see those in full production, however, yes they would be expensive.
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This confuses me. I was under the impression that value had to do with what you were getting for what you were paying, both in terms of the piece itself and its use. Variety seems to be what Kershaw has been about insomuch as they offer lower end models and higher end models. However every knife I've bought from them, I've felt was of great value considering what I paid for it. I'll cite for example my Knockout, the BFC Skyline, the CF Blurs (along with the other Blurs), the Kurai, and the Tilt. A quick look at what these pieces actually cost for what you're getting shows, I think, that they're a great value. The Knockout is an amazing knife, and in use it performs very well and holds up to a lot of rugged use. The BFC Skyline is a fantastic EDC blade, and is essentially my second favorite knife below the CF Blur. The CF Blur is, in my opinion, the best knife Kershaw ever made for the money. The CPM-154 steel, the CF inserts, the smoothness without the assist, etc. It's great, it really is. The Kurai costs peanuts, and I've given one as a gift to someone who absolutely loves it.

I shouldn't have to say anything about the Tilt, because what Kershaw sold it for was an absolute steal for what went into that knife. Value can't adequately capture it.

The fit and finish, quality of materials, and reliability of those knives (save for the Tilt, which I can't comment on because I don't use mine) is top knotch, as have been that of the other Blurs, all the Leeks, the Piston, every Skyline, the Camp 10, and the others I forgot about since they kind of sit pretty in my closet.

Moxy said:
Now look at ZT, flawless build quality, high-end materials, collaborations with the biggest names in the industry, and still considered high value even at their expensive prices. It seems to me like Kershaw is getting swept under the rug, or rather swept overseas. US produced products generally are higher quality, and as an American it's a good feeling seeing my favorite knives being made in my home country.
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For 2012, they had the Piston, Knockout and Echelon. That in addition to more Blurs. It happens that this year, they only really released new imports and a new Blur. That's this year..the year that ZT started released pieces that do exactly what you wanted them to do, offer more EDC-friendly knives. Kershaw/ZT aren't an infinitely large company, and they have to allocate their resources as best they can. I have no idea why you would expect them to come out with new models to please everyone, every year. They do things as they can, and I think they're making the right decisions.

Moxy said:
Now if ZT were producing more EDC friendly knives, in addition to their overbuilt apocalyptic ready folders with all their assurances of quality, I'd get my fill of KAI products to join the EDC rotation along with my CRKs, Benchmades, and Spydercos. And there is a market for EDC friendly ZTs. Look at how many of us are doing backflips over the 770.
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Considering what ZT has released and will continue to release, I really don't see the point in what you said here at all.

Moxy said:
I really think KAI is missing a big portion of the market, i.e. those who have graduated above FRN, stainless handels, and 8cr13mov, and would rather see more s30v and titanium, but don't want a small anvil in their pocket.
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I don't really understand what you're saying here. They offer knives at every price point, and ZT is starting to offer knives that fit your description, yet you're not satisfied? If that's the case, I really wonder why you choose to offer advice to a company that is clearly doing well by doing what they want to do instead of just finding knives that fit exactly what you want.

Moxy said:
Recent hiccups with some of Kershaw's latest models have me frowning more often than not. Now understand that I'm really picky and over-scrutinize ever tiny detail to no end, probably alot more than is warranted at the lower price-points, but things like my Echelon having a 1/4in length of unsharpened blade down towards the choil... c'mon. Then I read endless accounts of flawless blems that shouldn't in fact be blems. :confused:
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That's not a hiccup. It's how the plunge onto the blade grind is for that particular model. You acknowledge that you have an unreasonable attitude towards knives, yet here you are as if you're coming at all this from a rational standpoint. The last 1/4" of the Echelon's blade apparently translates to "Recent hiccups with someof Kershaw's latest models..." Um...alright. So what else is there? I'd expect you to have a significant amount of data to back that claim up, since it's a clear blanket statement.

Moxy said:
I'm not saying Kershaw should altogether ditch their "value" lines, we wouldn't want to put Nutnfacy out of job, but I'd relish a %200 price increase if it meant more titanium and supersteels. Why does a Skyline in s30v have to be a sprint? I hated having to search for months to get my hands on my TiZDP mini cyclone at a decent price. The very fact that the collectors prices are so inflated is a dead giveaway that there is a market for more. Is a Ti framelock blur with KVT instead of speedsafe and CPM154 or s35vn such a crazy idea for a full production model? I'm loving the look of the new Injection, but why do we have to hope for a sprint run before we see anything better than 8cr13mov? I know all of this is easier said than done. I just don't like seeing Kershaw being overshadowed by ZT.
/*end rant*/
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I'm sorry I have to be so harsh, but Kershaw's market is much much more than the whims of a tiny number of enthusiasts. The enthusiasts and fans are the reason they make limited pieces and dolled up versions of their products. They didn't make the Tilt, the LE Blurs, the BFC Skyline, the Ti/ZDP Cyclone, etc. because the mass market of Kershaw products would really benefit from it. They make those knives for the tiny number of enthusiasts that have a real interest in the knives and want more.

Your inability to find the older limited runs is no fault of Kai, and I have no clue why you'd begrudge them of that. You'd be wise to understand that the thousands of people that frequent Bladeforums doesn't even begin to hold a candle to what just Kershaw actually sells worldwide of their products.

You, me, "we" are a tiny portion of their market, and for you to talk about "Kershaw's image in the Knife Community" with any kind of certainty is profoundly arrogant and conceited.
 
Just buy what you like. If you can't find something that you really want, go custom.
 
When I do reviews, I sometimes include a section on warranty issues/Customer Service when it's warranted (very good service or very bad). The reviews on my site don't include any Kershaw's YET. I do own a couple and have owned several but mainly review the ZT line because I just prefer them. That being said, like someone already pointed out, they are the same company and their "standing" is derived from experiences with both brands. For me, experiences with Kershaw/ZT/KAI are reflected in the blurb I put in my 0550 review:

"WARRANTY / CUSTOMER SERVICE:

I don't usually include a section in my reviews regarding Warranty issues and customer service but KAI / Kershaw / Zero Tolerance deserves a mention on this subject. Two things stand out about this company in this regard; one, Zero Tolerance is made in the United States by craftsmen at their factory in Oregon. Second, Kershaw and Zero Tolerance have EARNED a reputation in the industry for their rock solid customer service and warranty. In short, it does not get any better that I know of within the knife world. Purchase a Kershaw or Zero Tolerance knife and you have bought a knife from a company that stands behind their product. Nothing else needs to be said...."

JP
 
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Point taken Stick. Like I said It's not and wasn't my intention to stir up a flame war. Seeing as this is the KAI forums I'm swimming against the current. Of course Kershaw's market extends far beyond the forums. But I'm talking about how the knife community's view of Kershaw has begun to slip in the last few years, at least among those who would rather shop at a higher price point. The general consensus is that Kershaw isn't on par with Spyderco and Benchmade and the like. I can see why. Only short runs with high end steels and handel materials can compare in my opinion. I love Kershaw, and I have my eye on a few new models. But material choice is disappointing.
 
I just got my a Piston this year. It performs AMAZINGLY. The grind on it is perfect. I mean I was cutting kydex with it and it held a great edge.

Kershaws/KAI's style seems to put out a few feelers, like cheaper knives and see how well they do, then put that into their high end line. Since ZT had some great folders come out in the past, I heard a spokesperson for KAI say that they are working on similar designs / projects for kershaw.

I would love to see some more composites and that thing, but Kershaws are workhorses, in my opinion, the best all around folders as far as price, quality, warranty, toughness, and materials go, I think Kershaws generally beat out other brands when you put all of those categories together.

Like others said, if you want something special, go custom because RJ Martin really put some of his designs into KAI, if you like his style (which I do), go for it...you probably won't be disappointed.
 
I wasn't flaming anything. That's actually how I talk to people (and those who met me at Blade Show could vouch I think) so don't feel as if I'm being combative. However it's the material choice that keeps the knives at their price points for their intended use. The best examples are the Piston and the Knockout. They're fantastic work knives with a robust construction, and they're USA produced. The Sandvik steel is very very good, and is a great working steel. The price for those knives is at a point that makes them good for what you're getting.

Again, I have to take issue with what you're saying. You're asserting that the "knife community's view of Kershaw has begun to slip." I haven't seen it, and if you think you have from the span of this forum and maybe a couple of others, I'd say again that it's a pretty arrogant assertion to make. You're not just saying it's a speculation, you're asserting truth, and that's what I have a problem with. I haven't seen much evidence that shows the "knife community" has a dropping impression of Kershaw. Moreover, what do you mean by "knife community"? The BF community? The community present in the Spyderco or Benchmade subforums? The community in the Hinderer or CRK subforums? How are you defining this community, and are you certain it's not really your own preferences that are creating an atmosphere that may not really be there? These are questions that I think are important to answer when you make a statement of fact as you are doing now.

You go on to assert that "the general consensus is that Kerhaw isn't on par with Spyderco and Benchmade and the like." The consensus of who? The questions above all apply here as well. Also, on par with what? If you look to sales of product, then there's a good chance you're just wrong. If you're talking about materials, then I'd say you're a bit off there as well. What does Benchmade really use? 154CM, S30V, D2? That's pretty much what they use on their regular production knives. Their staple pieces, the Griptilian, uses 154CM and FRCP (I think...it may be FRN). So, what's up with that? Their sprint run Grips use S30V, M4, G10 in the handles, sure. So, what's so different?

Spyderco as well. Their popular models like the Delica and Endura use FRN handles. They use VG-10, which is a nice steel, however in my admittedly limited experience with it, it's not exactly orders of magnitude ahead of 14C28N as far as edge retention. Spyderco does indeed make models with more exotic steels and handle materials, however the real difference is that they do so under the same company banner. There's no Spyderco/No Tolerance going on. Kai does have that distinction in the companies, Spyderco does not.

It really seems like you're seeing things that you want to see, and making a lot of undue assumptions about the progress of the company's lineup. It also really seems that you just don't like what they've come out with this year, and have unreasonable expectations, so as a result you're asserting a situation that I can't see much evidence for.


Lastly, if the new offerings that are released in a single year are enough to have your image of Kershaw slip, then you have some thinking to do on what should matter to you in a company. Given their extensive catalog and long history, they are one of the top companies who stands behind their knives. They're service is almost Leatherman status, and that says a lot. They replace broken blades, replace entire knives, fix almost everything, and will cover the overwhelming majority of warranty requests they receive. Everything that they make, they stand behind. That is a much more telling thing as to their reputation in the "knife community" than the fact that in 2013, Kershaw happened to put out mostly import products. Nothing to say of course of the fact that they debuted a new Carpenter steel in that smoke green anodized Blur....
 
Did the OP not bother to read the 'I'm worried about ZT's direction' thread?

It's the exact same thread just with opposite concerns.

KAI in general is going to fill out the different niches of knife buyers utilizing both brands.
 
Scurvy092 said:
Did the OP not bother to read the 'I'm worried about ZT's direction' thread?

It's the exact same thread just with opposite concerns.

KAI in general is going to fill out the different niches of knife buyers utilizing both brands.
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which is why there my favorite company, i plan on carrying a leek right side an 0200 come 3-6 weeks
 
Moxy said:
Point taken Stick. Like I said It's not and wasn't my intention to stir up a flame war. Seeing as this is the KAI forums I'm swimming against the current. Of course Kershaw's market extends far beyond the forums. But I'm talking about how the knife community's view of Kershaw has begun to slip in the last few years, at least among those who would rather shop at a higher price point. The general consensus is that Kershaw isn't on par with Spyderco and Benchmade and the like. I can see why. Only short runs with high end steels and handel materials can compare in my opinion. I love Kershaw, and I have my eye on a few new models. But material choice is disappointing.
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Can you provide specific examples of this please? Speculation is somthing anyone can do, the accuracy is what leaves a lot to be desired. Sal Glesser has stated in a thread that Kershaw, Spyderco, and Benchmade all have a different portion of the market. One might think they are all competing for the same niche, but he seemed to think differently. I also recall Thomas mentioning something about this a while back, it was also along those lines (from what I can recall). That is not to say that some models produced by all 3 companies are not geared towards a specific group (skinning knives, for example).

I think what is happening to you with all this is that your tastes in knives are evolving. It happensto everyone. Many start out with $5 gas station knives and end up with only mid-tech nd customs. The average knife consumer may spend between $25-50 for a knife. They also may not give 2 squats about Elmax, S110V, or know there is a huge difference. The area you seem to want to be in is the mid tech area. There are already a lot of knives and manufacturers covering that scope.
 
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Moxy said:
I'm not saying Kershaw should altogether ditch their "value" lines, we wouldn't want to put Nutnfacy out of job, but I'd relish a %200 price increase if it meant more titanium and supersteels. Why does a Skyline in s30v have to be a sprint? I hated having to search for months to get my hands on my TiZDP mini cyclone at a decent price. The very fact that the collectors prices are so inflated is a dead giveaway that there is a market for more. Is a Ti framelock blur with KVT instead of speedsafe and CPM154 or s35vn such a crazy idea for a full production model? I'm loving the look of the new Injection, but why do we have to hope for a sprint run before we see anything better than 8cr13mov? I know all of this is easier said than done. I just don't like seeing Kershaw being overshadowed by ZT.
/*end rant*/
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To me it sounds like you want an A.G. Russel Acies2, manufactured by Kershaw/ZT with premium materials and workmanship, it doesn't bear the Kershaw logo, or KVT (and opens silky smooth without it) but otherwise meets your criteria including the 200% cost increase.
 
Hi Moxy -

I would suggest that perhaps your taste has changed after tasting the higher end knives.

Kershaw was making knives like the Volt and Speedform and has now started making limited editions in their premier ZT line.

I don't think the Kershaw brand is falling behind, but rather they are making a more discriminating customer out of YOU by producing knives of a higher dosage.

Something to consider, and just my opinion.

best

mqqn
 
Think about what you need to cut. Buy the appropriate tool. Do you want pocket jewelry? Can you afford it? Then buy what you want. Needs and wants aren't always the same.

If a company isn't making what you want then buy from another.
 
That's not a hiccup. It's how the plunge onto the blade grind is for that particular model. You acknowledge that you have an unreasonable attitude towards knives, yet here you are as if you're coming at all this from a rational standpoint. The last 1/4" of the Echelon's blade apparently translates to "Recent hiccups with someof Kershaw's latest models..." Um...alright. So what else is there? I'd expect you to have a significant amount of data to back that claim up, since it's a clear blanket statement.
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An off center red Skyline SW that can't be fixed and that I'm stuck with since they don't have any replacements. But stuff like that happens with all manufacturers, and it works OK. Hey, isn't stuff like that the reason for this forum, so that KAI knows about these issues from people who fiddle with the knives a lot? That said, automatic precision manufacturing is almost here so it won't be that long before every knife is perfection. They'll have to be, or give up market share. Nanotechnology is going to change everything, especially QC.
 
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